Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
 
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
Home Help Search Login Register Broadcast Message to Admin(s)


Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Theology according to The Rolling Stones (Read 607 times)
Edith Grove
Agent Provocateur
*****
Offline


Disco STILL sucks!

Posts: 12,336
New Orleans
Gender: male
Theology according to The Rolling Stones
Aug 5th, 2009 at 6:53pm
Alert Board Moderator about this Post! 
Theology according to the Rolling Stones, by Dr. Bob Beltz
August 5, 4:32 PM


Modern Theologians?

I’ve been thinking about playing the Rolling Stones in church. Over the last few weeks I’ve been teaching a series on the supernatural universe and I can’t shake this old song the Stones recorded back in 1968. You usually don’t think of the Stones as being valuable assets in communicating spiritual truth, but I think one of their early songs communicates an essential spiritual truth in a way that some of the best of theologians can’t equal. Even more unlikely, the name of the song I refer to is “Sympathy for the Devil.”
The song was written by Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. In later interviews Jagger attributed inspiration for the piece to Baudelaire, but critics have linked it to Russian novelist Mikhail Bulgakov’s The Master and the Margarita. Sung in the first person, Jagger begins the piece by singing:

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for long, long years
Stole many man's soul and faith

In these short phrases the song introduces the concept of personified evil. Jagger later identifies his narrator specifically as “Lucifer.” When theologians attempt to piece together the origins of evil they usually identify Lucifer as one of the highest order of angels that became corrupted through his great beauty and decided he no longer wanted to serve God, but be God. He was cast out of God’s presence and in this scenario convinced one-third of the angelic ranks to rebel with him. These fallen angels then became what we today identify as the Devil and demons that wage war against God and his purposes. Note how the song spells this out. The second stanza finds the narrator informing us that:

And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Then Mick launches into the chorus:

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

We live in a complex world. It is “puzzling.” It is a world where “good” happens. There is love, beauty, compassion, creativity, and wonder. But it is also a world in which pain, suffering, death, and destruction are daily occurrences. Religious leaders, thinkers, and philosophers throughout the ages have tried to create unified systems of thought that bring these conflicting realities together in some meaningful explanation of life. The Stones continue:

I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the Czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
"Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all
It was you and me

From the time of Christ through the modern era, “Sympathy for the Devil” paints a picture of evil at work in the most destructive of human events. The question we need to ask is whether this concept reflects a primitive belief system that needed to invent the realm of the demonic to explain the tragedies of life, or whether the picture and description in the Bible, on which the concepts contained in the song are based, is a timeless description of the true nature of the fallen universe.

In one final stanza, Lucifer suggests that:

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint

The implication is that wrong can be right and right can be wrong, or at least that our narrator can twist the facts in a way that “puzzle” us. The conclusion is a warning:

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste.

I don’t think Jagger and Richards necessarily hold a biblical world-view. I imagine they were simply trying to create a song that wrestled with the fact that something is horribly wrong with the way things are and found the imagery of the Bible helpful in communicating the idea. I remember the outrage that accompanied the release of the song in 1968. The Stones were accused of being Satanists and perverting the mind of America’s youth. At the time I couldn't have cared less. I just thought the music was great. Then when a young man was murdered during the Stones concert at Altamont the rumor spread that it happened while the band was performing this piece. It wasn’t true (they were actually performing “Under My Thumb”), but the rumors grew. Then several years later, as I wrestled with these issues and sought to come to grips with the problem of pain and evil in the world I rediscovered the song and found it to be pure genius. As I found myself addressing these issues in my teaching work I couldn’t shake the song from my mind. I even went to YouTube and discovered that the session in the studio when the song was recorded back in June of 1968 had been filmed. It seems that Jean Luc-Godard was working on a film on the American counter-culture and dropped in the studio to shoot some footage of the Stones – just as they were recording the song.

So what do you think? Should I play it in church? The Stones and theology? Jesus and “Sympathy for the Devil?” What would Jesus do – or play?

http://www.examiner.com/x-513-Faith--Culture-Examiner~y2009m8d5-Theology-accordi...

Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2009 at 6:55pm by Edith Grove »  

“What rap did that was impressive was to show there are so many tone-deaf people out there,” he says. “All they need is a drum beat and somebody yelling over it and they’re happy. There’s an enormous market for people who can’t tell one note from another.” - Keef
 
IP Logged
 
Pdog
Rocks Off Regular
*****
Offline



Posts: 6,118
aTx
Gender: male
Re: Theology according to The Rolling Stones
Reply #1 - Aug 5th, 2009 at 8:27pm
Alert Board Moderator about this Post! 
I heard the Rolling Stones, I made a decision, rock n' roll is my religion!!!
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Edith Grove
Agent Provocateur
*****
Offline


Disco STILL sucks!

Posts: 12,336
New Orleans
Gender: male
Re: Theology according to The Rolling Stones
Reply #2 - Aug 5th, 2009 at 8:53pm
Alert Board Moderator about this Post! 
Pdog wrote on Aug 5th, 2009 at 8:27pm:
I heard the Rolling Stones, I made a decision, rock n' roll is my religion!!!


It's just that demon life has got you in it's sway

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/leepullen/Keith-Richards-The-Devils-Musi...
Back to top
 

“What rap did that was impressive was to show there are so many tone-deaf people out there,” he says. “All they need is a drum beat and somebody yelling over it and they’re happy. There’s an enormous market for people who can’t tell one note from another.” - Keef
 
IP Logged
 
Kilroy
Rocks Off Regular
*****
Offline


I love this place!

Posts: 2,860
Mickville Virginny USA
Gender: male
Re: Theology according to The Rolling Stones
Reply #3 - Aug 5th, 2009 at 11:53pm
Alert Board Moderator about this Post! 
Yes play it. It's a great piece of art and a great way to get a discussion going. And  the best way to get people to open their minds is an open discussion. The song, to me, Makes little of the "Devil", makes he, she, it , appear weak?
To me it, The song makes me realize the devil is in us all, were just human, it's how we deal with this concept of Evil, that is our, your own personal  salvation.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2009 at 12:28am by Kilroy »  


The Core Of The Rolling Stones is Charlie Watts Hi-Hat/The Sunshine Bores The Daylights Out Of Me/And Then We Became Naked/After the Skeet Shoot & Sweet Dreams Mary & #9 11/22/1968 @#500 2/19/2010 @#800 4/09/2011 @#888 10/28/2011 @#1000 2/2/12
 
IP Logged
 
Pdog
Rocks Off Regular
*****
Offline



Posts: 6,118
aTx
Gender: male
Re: Theology according to The Rolling Stones
Reply #4 - Aug 8th, 2009 at 8:10pm
Alert Board Moderator about this Post! 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
jostorm
Rocks Off Regular
*****
Offline


Rocks Off Rules You Bastards

Posts: 408
Gender: female
Re: Theology according to The Rolling Stones
Reply #5 - Aug 9th, 2009 at 9:03am
Alert Board Moderator about this Post! 
really interesting read, Edith Grove, thanks for posting!
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
LanternHigh
Rocks Off Regular
*****
Offline


Rocks Off Rules You Bastards

Posts: 1,434
Italy
Gender: female
Re: Theology according to The Rolling Stones
Reply #6 - Aug 9th, 2009 at 10:30am
Alert Board Moderator about this Post! 
I've see on Facebook in Rolling Stones Network, a link about the satanism of the song..
But it's a greatest one. Thanks Edith Grove for sharing.
Back to top
 

...&&...
https://www.facebook.com/  
IP Logged
 
Glimmer Twin
Rocks Off Regular
*****
Offline


Rocks Off Rules You Bastards

Posts: 273
Re: Theology according to The Rolling Stones
Reply #7 - Aug 9th, 2009 at 9:27pm
Alert Board Moderator about this Post! 
Edith Grove wrote on Aug 5th, 2009 at 6:53pm:
Theology according to the Rolling Stones, by Dr. Bob Beltz
August 5, 4:32 PM


....

So what do you think? Should I play it in church? The Stones and theology? Jesus and “Sympathy for the Devil?” What would Jesus do – or play?

http://www.examiner.com/x-513-Faith--Culture-Examiner~y2009m8d5-Theology-accordi...


Are you nuts?  They would throw you out and have you excomunicated. lol
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Rev 20 Redlights
Rocks Off Regular
*****
Offline


Rocks Off Rules You Bastards

Posts: 1,504
Re: Theology according to The Rolling Stones
Reply #8 - Aug 10th, 2009 at 1:21pm
Alert Board Moderator about this Post! 
"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name."

Hmm, what do you mean, Mick, you hope we guessed
your name? You told us your name in the song. Lucifer.
I mean, the title of the song is Sympathy For The DEVIL.
What is there to guess?

Yet, even after repeating the "hope you guessed" line
quite a few times, there Mick is again, in the outro, over
and over again, taunting us, "Tell me, baby, what's my
name?"

Why is Mick singing that? It makes no sense. We know
his name.

And then there's the second part of the "guess" line:
"But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game."

Hmm, nobody is puzzled by the nature of the Devil's
game. The Devil's game is very straightforward. He
wants you to give in to temptation and screw up so badly
that God rejects you completely and you burn in hell
forever. It's simple. No puzzle there.

Hmm, speaking of God, now THERE is a guy whose
game people often say they are puzzled by. It's the
age-old theological question: "If God is all-good and
all-powerful, why does he sometimes allow terrible things
to happen, likewars and assassinations and tsunamis?"
Another way people say it is, "Why does God allow bad
things to happen to good people?" And in one way or
another every religion has to deal with these questions.

So, yes, strange as it may sound, I am saying that I think
the name of the narrator of the song Sympathy For The
Devil is "God".

Wait, please, hear me out. I actually have ten more reasons
for thinking this.

One: Mick as much as says so. "Just as every cop is a
criminal" (that's not true), "and all the sinners saints" (that's
not true either), "as heads is tails" (not just false, but the
exact opposite), "just call me Lucifer" (equally false, and
also I believe intentionally the exact opposite of the truth).

Two: With regard to the line "I was there when Jesus Christ
had his moment of doubt", well, although the Devil was
specifically with Jesus twice, once in the wilderness and
once in the garden at Gethsemane, on neither occasion
did Jesus express any doubt whatsoever. On the contrary,
he was a pillar of certitude both times. Jesus had his moment
of doubt later, on the cross. And who was there at that moment?
Who did Jesus speak to?

Jesus: "My GOD, my GOD, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Three: With regard to "Or I'll lay your soul to waste", actually,
Satan has no power to lay anyone's soul to waste. He has only
the power of temptation. Your soul can be laid to waste by only
two entities: You, by giving in to temptation, and GOD, by smiting
you if and when He feels like it. Check out the the Old Testament
for numerous warnings and examples of GOD's god-awful temper.

Four: With regard to, "I made damn sure that Pilate washed his
hands and sealed his fate", note, there is no mention in the Bible
of Satan or temptation having anything to do with Pilate's decision.
But in John 19:10-11, guess who is cited by Jesus as having Pilate
on a string?

Pilate: "Knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee?"

Jesus: "Thou couldest have no power at all against me except it
were given thee from above." From GOD.

Five: With regard to, "I killed the Czar... Anastasia (the Czar's
daughter) screamed in vain," here's a quote from a short bio of
Czar Nicholas II (www.geocities.com/Vienna/9463/nicholas.html):
"Nicholas was extremely spiritual in nature as was his wife and
children... Nicholas believed that all that happened to him was
GOD's will and therefore never attempted to alter what he
considered his fate."

Six: With regard to, "I rode a tank, held a general's rank, when
the blitzkrieg raged", please click the following link to read the
entirety of General George Patton's extraordinary letter to GOD
(Favorite excerpt: "You (GOD) have to choose which side you
are on. You must come to my aid, so that I can kill the entire
German army, and offer it like a birthday gift to the Baby Jesus."
[ardennes44.free.fr].

Seven: With regard to "While your kings and queens fought for
ten decades for the GODs they made", well, that's pretty self-
explanatory. I'll only add that the Hundred Years War's most
famous leader and combatant, Joan of Arc, was completely
motivated by visions of and from GOD.

Eight: With regard to "Who Killed the Kennedys", here is Bobby
Kennedy's favorite (according to Bobby's son) quotation from
Abraham Lincoln: "I know there is a GOD and that He hates
injustice. I see the storm coming and I see GOD's hand in it.
If GOD has a place and a part for me, I am ready."

Nine: With regard to "I lay traps for troubadours who get killed
before they reach Bombay", well, this clearly is a warning to
20th-21st century singer-songwriters to be careful about launching
themselves on messianic Crusades, in the name of GOD, as did
their 11th-13th century counterparts, the original troubadours, with
often disasterous results.

Ten: In a very famous Biblical passage (Exodus 3:13-14), Moses
asks GOD what his name is, so that Moses will be able to tell the
children of Israel exactly who it is that is suddenly issuing all these
orders. And GOD replies, "I AM THAT I AM. Thus shalt thou say
unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you." The names
Yahweh, Jehovah, and Jah all derive from the original Hebrew
for "I AM".

Well, I just played Sympathy, and I count (in its contracted form,
"I'm", and its implied form, as in "(I am) pleased to meet you"
at least 8 uses of the phrase "I am".

Hmm, okay, but then why is the song called Sympathy For The
DEVIL?

Because to be fair you really ought to have some sympathy for
the Devil because the Devil often gets the blame for stuff that GOD
causes, or at least allows to happen, or that people allow to happen
to themselves. And the Stones certainly had sympathy for the Devil
at that time in their lives, as they were similarly being unfairly blamed
for all kinds of things that were none of their doing.

Its funny to think how everyone considered Mick audacious for invoking the
voice of Satan. How much more audacious of him to instead be
ever-so-slyly invoking the voice of God Almighty?

Mick's forty year old puzzle, "Guess my name", is hereby solved.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Kilroy
Rocks Off Regular
*****
Offline


I love this place!

Posts: 2,860
Mickville Virginny USA
Gender: male
Re: Theology according to The Rolling Stones
Reply #9 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 12:33pm
Alert Board Moderator about this Post! 
By GOD I think you got ,it. Cool!
Back to top
 

e7_1_007.JPG (16 KB | )
e7_1_007.JPG

The Core Of The Rolling Stones is Charlie Watts Hi-Hat/The Sunshine Bores The Daylights Out Of Me/And Then We Became Naked/After the Skeet Shoot & Sweet Dreams Mary & #9 11/22/1968 @#500 2/19/2010 @#800 4/09/2011 @#888 10/28/2011 @#1000 2/2/12
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Gazza, Voodoo Chile in Wonderland)