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Mellotron - Beggars Banquet (Read 1,021 times)
Philip
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Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Dec 4th, 2008 at 4:04pm
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There is ongoing debate as to what instruments were used on Beggars Banquet, in particular the whining sound on Jigsaw Puzzle. As you will hear, this was recorded using a MKII Mellotron using the flute sound.

Another lesser known use of the mellotron on the album is the mandolin part on Factory Girl. This features use of the MKII's mandolin sound as previously heard on Citadel from 1967.

...

Here are 2 sound clips which should help clarify the use of the mellotron on those particular tracks.

What you will hear is an excerpt from the original stones recording, followed by  a short clip recorded with M-tron mellotron samples(I can't afford a real mellotron!) followed by the original stones recording with the solo M-tron at the same time.

1 - Original recording excerpt
2 - M-tron recreation of the part
3 - Combination of original and recreation

Jigsaw Puzzle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR-tBfxTI9M


Factory Girl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1CIyt5kM5Y
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #1 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 4:26pm
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interesting....very interesting

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Zack
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #2 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 5:19pm
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I thought Rick Grech played mandolin on FG.
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Sioux
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #3 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 7:02pm
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That is fascinating, Philip! Thanks!!! Smiley
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Philip
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #4 - Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:59pm
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Zack wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 5:19pm:
I thought Rick Grech played mandolin on FG.


No, he played violin/fiddle. 

It's not clear who played the mellotron on Factory Girl, seems that it was either Brian Jones, Nicky Hopkins or Dave Mason. 

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stones67
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #5 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 5:23am
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Hi Philip.... great post. I think the mellotron part on Jigsaw Puzzle is totally brilliant... simple, yet adding great atmosphere and as always with Brian only he could have done it. As far as Factory Girl, most websites credit Dave Mason with playing the mellotron mandolin part and Rick Grech as playing the fiddle.

Brian was brilliant with the mellotron!!!!
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #6 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 7:02am
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Wow, that completely changed the way I hear "Factory Girl" now.
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #7 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 7:28am
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Mellotrons were very cool in their time.  King Crimson used them to death 1969--1973, but they showed up nicely as late as in Skynyrd's "Tuesday's Gone".
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Philip
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #8 - Dec 5th, 2008 at 7:46am
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stones67 wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 5:23am:
Hi Philip.... great post. I think the mellotron part on Jigsaw Puzzle is totally brilliant... simple, yet adding great atmosphere and as always with Brian only he could have done it. As far as Factory Girl, most websites credit Dave Mason with playing the mellotron mandolin part and Rick Grech as playing the fiddle.

Brian was brilliant with the mellotron!!!!


I completely agree with you about JP, the part gives the track a great psychedelic feel. .Jimmy Miller has said that Brian played 'flutes' on the album, so he must have been meaning that part.   I've always loved it since I first heard it, but for years I thought it was a recorder or something. 

Most if not all websites just say mandolin, timeisonourside changed their crediting after with sssoul from iorr told them about my mellotron findings. 

Keith has said that Nicky suggested the fiddle part on Factory Girl, so perhaps that's an indication that he played on the track too, there's only one keyboard instrument on there so!?
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« Last Edit: Dec 5th, 2008 at 8:40am by Philip »  
 
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #9 - Dec 6th, 2008 at 1:51am
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It could well be Nicky Hopkins then.... the crediting of parts attributed on some web sites is basically just conjecture.... people assume so much. I have read that Dave Mason played 2nd acoustic guitar on Dear Doctor and Shehani (an Indian flute) on Street Fighting Man. The same source claimed Dave played the Mellotron on Factory Girl... but I think you may be right.
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Philip
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #10 - Dec 6th, 2008 at 7:16am
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stones67 wrote on Dec 6th, 2008 at 1:51am:
It could well be Nicky Hopkins then.... the crediting of parts attributed on some web sites is basically just conjecture.... people assume so much. I have read that Dave Mason played 2nd acoustic guitar on Dear Doctor and Shehani (an Indian flute) on Street Fighting Man. The same source claimed Dave played the Mellotron on Factory Girl... but I think you may be right.


I used to own a shehnai, oh man it took a lot of air to make that thing sound ok.

Yeah Bill's Rolling with the Stones say's Dave played guitar on Dear Doctor, but there only appears to be one and that's definitely Keith. If he was present during the session it's possible he played harmonica on that track, the playing is kind of similar to Dave's harmonica playing on Traffic's 2nd album.
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stones67
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #11 - Dec 6th, 2008 at 4:09pm
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Just had another couple of listens to 'Dear Doctor'.... I think the harmonica does sound like Brian. It is consistent with the sound he gets on other songs such as 'One more try', also includes some of his signature flourishes that he uses at the end of some of his phrases. Brian's harmonica playing tends to use a different tremello to Micks. I am not familiar with Dave Mason's harmonica playing so I can't comment.... I have not heard the Traffic stuff.

Guitar wise I agree with you - it's Keith all the way in the right speaker. At about 25 seconds in the 'tack piano' or whatever they credit it as being comes in on the left speaker.... this could also be something else too.... what do you pick it as? It has the struck quality attack of an appregiated 12 string acoustic part almost, but with enough other tinkling sounds to suggest it's not a 12 string.... an instrument that is like a mandolin but not a mandolin? Then at 1.39 when it modulates from E to A it begins to sound more like a harpsichord..... all part of the fun of listening to Beggars Banquet really!!!!!!!
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Philip
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #12 - Dec 7th, 2008 at 4:01am
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Dave only plays harmonica on one song on Traffic's 2nd album, but it has certain features that are similar to the playing on Dear Doctor, most notably the hand cupping/wah wah like effect. 

Even on the outtakes there's only one guitar, so I wonder if Bill, through the passing of time, has simply got the instrument Dave played mixed up.

That's definitely a tack piano.
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stones67
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #13 - Dec 8th, 2008 at 5:15pm
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Thanks Philip.... Bill seems to have got some of the details mixed up quite a bit here and there.... for instance in Rolling with the Stones he claims the main guitars Keith and Taylor used on Sticky Fingers were Les Pauls, when in fact they used quite a few different guitars - Taylor used a Strat, a Tele and a Gibson 345 among others... Keith also used an SG on Brown Sugar..... I think Bill filled in a lot of details retrospectively and as a result relied on memory, not on notes.

I haven't heard the outtakes for Dear Doctor.... is there very much in the alternate takes that is different to the way the Beggars Banquet version sounds? To me it comes across as one of those songs that was pretty well written in full before being recorded.

Tack Piano as I understand it is simply a piano with tacks nailed into the felt piano hammers, which alters the tone that is made when the piano hammers hit the piano strings, resulting in a sound which is pretty well what Dear Doctor has.... but what's confusing me is the occasional sound of what seems like strumming.... kind of like what you might get on an Autoharp.

Thanks again Philip..... it's great to get your posts.
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Philip
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Re: Mellotron - Beggars Banquet
Reply #14 - Dec 9th, 2008 at 2:49pm
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It's possible that perhaps things got lost in translation between Bill and his writer.  I'm sure if he got too anal about the details his books would probably have never came out.

The bass sounds are different between Take 1 and the released version.  Sounds like an electric on take 1, whilst the released version sounds like it's a double bass.

I had another close listen to Dear Doctor  today, and I guess it's possible that there could be a 2nd guitar playing a fair bit quieter in the background. It's hard to focus as there is so much little strums, fills and licks  going on though. If there is a 2nd guitar it's mixed right in with the upfront one.

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