Most definitely.

Its a misconception to date the Stones "golden era" as encompassing the period that Mick Taylor was in the band - because it overlooks the music created in the 14 months before he joined and the undeniable fact that there was a gradual decline in their output which preceded his departure.

Much more realistic to date it back to the first single they made with Jimmy Miller - Jumpin Jack Flash - through to Goats Head Soup, by which time he had burned himself out.

Mick and Keith were at their peak as songwriters between 1968 and the making of Exile in 1971 - and the Stones created their greatest work in that period because they had a fantastic producer who brought out the best in them.

In that period of just over 3 and a half years, no other act in the history of popular music (with the probable exception of Dylan in the mid 60's) has ever produced such a burst of sustained brilliance.

Great producer, some highlights in addition to the Stones are Traffic, Sky, Spooky Tooth, Blind Faith, The Move, Family... I like it!

Didn't he die?

Rick Rubin vs Jimmy Miller.

Discuss.

Am I good or am I good?

Miller and Kimsey produced differently. Miller was a skilled musician, as well as a producer. Hence, he was a "musicians producer". Where as Kimsey was, as Gazza stated more along the lines of the technical side of production.

Kimsey produced with Mick's vocals out in front with a more straightforward mix. Miller produced Jaggers vocals more buried in the mix with a lot of doubling to them. Millers production had depth in it's sound. It was much more organic with a lot of breathing to the instruments sound. Kimsey's production style (most often, but not always) was more over a direct approach, more surfaced based, and tighter .. fitting perfectly in the late seventies and early eighties.

Kimsey produced a few lower end (for Stones standards they were lower end. Still they were fair albums with some memorable tunes on each of them) Stones albums where Miller produced four or five masterworks.

Two different types of production.

Ian

Jimmy Miller was everything a producer should be- a musician,  inspiration giver, knowing what sounds good and how to push the band to do it.  I would give him every bit as much of the credit Mick Taylor gets for that great run of albums.  It's a shame the Stones ate him up and spit him out like so many others.  I know the only person who got him hooked on dope was himself, but the company you keep will kill ya. He was the Stones' version of George Martin.

speedfreakjive wrote:

"This guy has got to be one of the most un-aknowledged and underrated players in the Stones history & producers ever 

just Googled his name and a tiny Wikipedia article  plus a little bit on Timeisonourside, is all I can find on him"

_____________________

Your so right speedfreakjive.

Wikipedia doesn't do him justice. It is not any sort of lengthy acclaim to such an outstanding Record Producer. While his work was not totally abundant, the work he did was simply masterful.

I am surprised Wikipedia didn't at least give some more info on his career, personal life, and death in their own sub-categories as this website does with so many other greats.

If you perform certain searches you will find much more info (as almost anything goes when it comes to Google), but still, I definitely see your gripe (and now my gripe as well). The web doesn't provide information on him as all the others and it REALLY should.

The guy was an astounding producer and very skilled musician. What a shame he doesn't get the "just do" he deserves (type in "Rick Rubin" and you'll get a zillion hits and over 100,000 pages of info on him...).

**Miller's production style provided a raunchy rawness ...while at the very same time added touches of polish and additions to the music all while making the tracks sound cohesive and fabulous in a manner I have never heard before. The Black Crows Lions is a really nice piece if you like Miller's style of production.

One thing is certain, true Stones fans (and there are millions of those) will NEVER forget him or what he did.


Ian

sammy davis jr. wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 11:03pm:


Can't say it better even after reading  :smile

rubin is amazing, although there's a big dif. as I see it. Rubin has worked better with older artists, and getting that mazing thing out ogf hwat would seem to be a dry well. I like his earlier work, but it was with bands who already had loud powerful music, like slayer and The Cult. He improved, but not like Miller did with The Stones. I don't think Rubin, if we had a wayback machine, would've done what Miller did in the 70's. Look at the dif. between The Cult's Love album and the follow up electric. Anyone who has heard the Peace album, which is on the limited ed. boxset, has heard the dif. The peace album is The electric album with a different producer.
Eaqual but different and I think Miller wins... until rubin does for The Stones what he did for Cash.

Glencar wrote:

"Rubin actually produces? I read an article on him a few months back & it made him sound very hands-off & mellow."

____________________

Your right. Rubin isn't a "technical producer" at all. He doesn't know much about running the equipment or the gear. Nor is he a "musician's producer". I suppose you could say Rubin is an sound observant producer.

Rubin sits (or lyes)  calm and basically motionless while hearing the artist. After a good longer listen he comes up with a mental check-list on the things he wants in place or to change. He talks directly to the musicians about it first, before the engineer. He focuses on the songs arrangement and style and not much of the "sound" aspect. He always has at least one excellent engineer working the board and taking care of the engineering side of things since he is fairly "light" on the technical stuff. In fact, he'd rather not get involved in touching the board at all.

This is not uncommon. Many producers (except ones like Miller) forget the board all together after they get deep into production. They may suggest certain outboard gear be patched in or ask for a certain sound from the engineer. Half the time they keep an eye on the person (or company) during the mastering process to make sure all is well. After a good number of years working in studios, most people will be able to run a board, or at least know the basics about most just fine. This is why many producers let that part go when they start producing.

It is the knowledge of the song and making it work in the what, when, and how that is the hard part. Also it is the knack of where to record to get good vibes and sound, and with who to call in as session musicians. The knowledge of how to get the band writing great music again. In other words it's things like ...should we begin writing music first or lyrics first with Joe Artist?

This is the key part to learning to produce. Not so much running the gear (although that still has to be in place either with you or someone there). 


Ian

pDog Wrote:

"Ian, I agree with most of what you wrote,although what are your sources, that he doesn't know or get involved with any tech or touching of the boards. I'm just wondering your sources, b/c I've not heard this before!!!

______________________


That is just how I interpret him as a Producer. <<<Ok.. I'll let you off the hook ...that's a joke that I knew would get under your skin.

Here it is seriously:
I went to school for Audio Engineering and Production. It is probably the best Audio Engineering school in the country (if not the world). They have some Grammy winning people teaching there (not that that means anything but it does lend to credibility). One of the instructors there knew of Rubin and he specifically explained this to me. Later, I interned with an engineer in Los Angeles, Elan Trujillo, who had "been around" as far as the Music Industry and recording goes (for what it's worth and on a side note he was real good pals with Dave Jerden, 1rst Engineer on Dirty Work. I am sure William Perks is just frothing at the mouth over that lol). He and a couple people there were quite familiar with Rubin (However, I cannot remember SPECIFICALLY if Elan affirmed Rubin's production style to me when we spoke of him?). Although, we certainly had discussed Rubin (one day he even showed me where Rubin lived and mentioned he sent someone to work with Rubin at one time...so they had connected).   

*In Addition:
I read an article of an interview with Rubin in Rolling Stone Magazine:

Rubin specifically stated in reference to his being a producer almost verbatim ...."I don't know much about running a board, but I know what I want to hear".

**Later:
Then (since I am kind of an Audio geek I suppose), I "youtubed" Rubin doing work in the studio and it showed evidence of what I was told personally concerning his production style.

Well, that's part of my lousy audio resume , for what it's worth.


Cheers,


Ian

I sense a thawing.

yes ian a snappy well written post - it certainly helps when you  know what you are talking about (cf - a lot of your posts re the stones recording/song writing activities - where you clearly have have no idea and it shows!!)*

don't you think tho - as well as bossing the board there is  one  production/engineering art as important and  i wonder if it has hasn't lost some of its importance with 21st C digital gear and that is microphone placement and particularly the control of ambient sound

* and i'm still scratching my head over the  idea that it's not mick on the cover of tattoo you  

Ian Billen wrote on Aug 27^th, 2008 at 2:10pm:


So he's a director, not a producer.  A dirigent, or orchestra conductor - the title is used in French for both conductors and film directors.

Jagger snapped up Jimmy Miller after hearing his hushed, memorable work on Traffic records.  That "breathing sound" that Ian refers to in JM's Stones productions is precisely the sound you hear on "The Low Spark of High-heeled Boys," and earlier Traffic songs.  I've always felt that the ballad textures on Goats Head Soup ("Coming Down Again," "Winter," "Can You Hear the Music") were leaves from the JM songbook, as interpreted by the Brothers Glimm.

stonedinaustrailia wrote:

don't you think tho - as well as bossing the board there is  one  production/engineering art as important and  i wonder if it has hasn't lost some of its importance with 21st C digital gear and that is microphone placement and particularly the control of ambient sound

__________________________

I appreciate your thought process. I can say this to you. Microphone placement always has an effect on the sound whether it be digital or analogue recording or mixing practices. Your placement effects the sound regardless of the gear/medium your using.

-The primary reason music recordings often do not sound as it did in the past is because digital recording (hard discs and digital tape) does not yet (although they have made leaps and strides) mimic the true analogue sound wave as recording it to tape (analogue tape) does.

-Another reason is the form of media your playing it on ...hence an ipod/hard disc versus an all analog playing device such as an actual record player. That makes a difference as well.

-More
Music is PURPOSEFULLY compressed today more than before. The dynamics are squashed today to make the music louder. The louder a song is the more likely you'll leave it on versus something with wonderful range of frequencies and more dynamics yet it is quieter.

Lastly,
Lastly, when converting analogue to digital something occurs, and also when compressing audio today  something occurs called "truncating" in it's bit depth (cutting some of it out to convert and/or store it) the audio for conversion and later it works out for less space when storing it, not to mention sampling rate  speeds. In short it removes sound. These bits of information in these "words" are SUPPOSEDLY inaudible to the human ear MOST of the time in higher bit-depths in HIGHER END ADC processing techniques used today. Why is it done??? It comes down to wanting to store more songs in less hard drive space and/or the limitations of analogue to digital conversion technology comes into play. It is known as a "lossy" process. Quantization also effects the sound ....which is more in depth and I don't feel like going into that right now

- - - - - - - - - - -AND I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY .... I CAN HEAR THE DIFFERENCE!

Today digital plug-ins (nothing more than a computer program basically) do the work of onboard processors or large outboard gear. Or the music is recorded right to a hard disc instead of any kind of tape be it analogue or digital, which also makes a difference.

- - - - - - - - -AND I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY THESE DO NOT SOUND THE SAME EITHER!

Factor all this in with today's speedy production and the fact that the radio will compress it more anyway before the signal leaves the radio station (if your talking about listening to tunes on radio) and you have music that can sound quite different from the all analogue techniques of yesteryear.

Not to confuse you:
Digital recording DEFINITELY has it's place. It depends on the type of sound you are trying to achieve, how that sound compliments the artist or song, the budget, and your time frame to record.


Ian

pdog wrote:

"knowing you may be an audio geek may come in helpful for me one day... I'm not an audiophile, I can't afford to be, but I'm intrigued, and do have very good ears..."

_________________


Thanks for the compliment. I'd be happy to give out any advice to you (for what ever it may be worth lol).

By the way, "good ears" is where it all starts ...maybe someday you can turn those into "golden ears" as they are called 


Ian

andews27 wrote:

"So he's a director, not a producer.  A dirigent, or orchestra conductor - the title is used in French for both conductors and film directors."

__________________

Your so right. Just because Rubin does not know a whole lot about the gear or the technical aspect of recording in today's day and age definitely does NOT mean the dude isn't producing. He has his own way of doing it and yes he is CERTAINLY producing and doing his job.

After all, that is all a Producer really is....just a "director of an album" so to speak.

He is quiet and subdued from everything I was ever told about him (I never met or worked with him but I have worked with people who directly worked under him on Wandering Spirit) and is totally down to earth. Rubin treats recording artist stars just like what they are when your the Record Producer....just people your working with. He is open to suggestion as well from anybody that will offer it.

Rubin will actually talk with the band about what they think about the sound during the recordings and might ask for their input. 

Different producers get things done in their own way is all. I agree.


Ian

smokeydusky wrote on Aug 28^th, 2008 at 1:07am:



One of his last credits was as co-producer on Primal Scream's 1991 album "Screamadelica".

While the album wasnt as Stones-influenced as many of their other efforts (its much more house-music orientated), I always thought it a bit ironic that the hit single from their next album ("Rocks" from 'Give out but dont give up') was a quite blatant rip off of two Stones songs that were produced by Jimmy Miller - the obvious one being 'Rocks Off' but, more bizarrely, the bridge from the GHS outtake "Criss Cross Mind"..

Bring back the Glimmer Twins!

No one has mentioned Glyn Johns in this equation. From interviews,I get the impression that he take no shit AND he recorded the "punk rock"Live EP "GOT LIVE IF YOU WANT IT ! " in 64/65 .Worked on lots of classic 60's recordings (as an engineer) before Jimmy Miller teamed up with the Stones.

He had a "huge row" with Keith during the Black and Blue sessions and walked out,never to return.

sc uk

Gazza wrote on Aug 27^th, 2008 at 5:29pm:

Wasn't that Mick recalling how they went in the street in Rubin's fancy white car (Mercedes ?) to play back mixes of "Sweet Thing" and get feedback from guys lurking around? I'll have to dig out that Musician interviews where he mentions that.

In any case, this thread is pretty amazing, not in the least because Ian is finally getting some respect after two plus years of "off the wall" posts, BRAVO !

As a side (but related) note, you guys won't believe what I found in a little antique shop the other day, an embossed Tattoo You promo cover about 50cm/50cm, should I offer it to Ian or sell it for a grand on eBay ?

" HE ALSO GOT KNOCKED OUT BY ROGER DALTREY DURING WHO ARE YOU SESSIONS  "

That is right ! .. Good Postin' Perks

Here .......... you deserve it : Enjoy :