yes ian a snappy well written post - it certainly helps when you  know what you are talking about (cf - a lot of your posts re the stones recording/song writing activities - where you clearly have have no idea and it shows!!)*

don't you think tho - as well as bossing the board there is  one  production/engineering art as important and  i wonder if it has hasn't lost some of its importance with 21st C digital gear and that is microphone placement and particularly the control of ambient sound

* and i'm still scratching my head over the  idea that it's not mick on the cover of tattoo you  

Ian Billen wrote on Aug 27^th, 2008 at 2:10pm:


So he's a director, not a producer.  A dirigent, or orchestra conductor - the title is used in French for both conductors and film directors.

Jagger snapped up Jimmy Miller after hearing his hushed, memorable work on Traffic records.  That "breathing sound" that Ian refers to in JM's Stones productions is precisely the sound you hear on "The Low Spark of High-heeled Boys," and earlier Traffic songs.  I've always felt that the ballad textures on Goats Head Soup ("Coming Down Again," "Winter," "Can You Hear the Music") were leaves from the JM songbook, as interpreted by the Brothers Glimm.

stonedinaustrailia wrote:

don't you think tho - as well as bossing the board there is  one  production/engineering art as important and  i wonder if it has hasn't lost some of its importance with 21st C digital gear and that is microphone placement and particularly the control of ambient sound

__________________________

I appreciate your thought process. I can say this to you. Microphone placement always has an effect on the sound whether it be digital or analogue recording or mixing practices. Your placement effects the sound regardless of the gear/medium your using.

-The primary reason music recordings often do not sound as it did in the past is because digital recording (hard discs and digital tape) does not yet (although they have made leaps and strides) mimic the true analogue sound wave as recording it to tape (analogue tape) does.

-Another reason is the form of media your playing it on ...hence an ipod/hard disc versus an all analog playing device such as an actual record player. That makes a difference as well.

-More
Music is PURPOSEFULLY compressed today more than before. The dynamics are squashed today to make the music louder. The louder a song is the more likely you'll leave it on versus something with wonderful range of frequencies and more dynamics yet it is quieter.

Lastly,
Lastly, when converting analogue to digital something occurs, and also when compressing audio today  something occurs called "truncating" in it's bit depth (cutting some of it out to convert and/or store it) the audio for conversion and later it works out for less space when storing it, not to mention sampling rate  speeds. In short it removes sound. These bits of information in these "words" are SUPPOSEDLY inaudible to the human ear MOST of the time in higher bit-depths in HIGHER END ADC processing techniques used today. Why is it done??? It comes down to wanting to store more songs in less hard drive space and/or the limitations of analogue to digital conversion technology comes into play. It is known as a "lossy" process. Quantization also effects the sound ....which is more in depth and I don't feel like going into that right now

- - - - - - - - - - -AND I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY .... I CAN HEAR THE DIFFERENCE!

Today digital plug-ins (nothing more than a computer program basically) do the work of onboard processors or large outboard gear. Or the music is recorded right to a hard disc instead of any kind of tape be it analogue or digital, which also makes a difference.

- - - - - - - - -AND I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY THESE DO NOT SOUND THE SAME EITHER!

Factor all this in with today's speedy production and the fact that the radio will compress it more anyway before the signal leaves the radio station (if your talking about listening to tunes on radio) and you have music that can sound quite different from the all analogue techniques of yesteryear.

Not to confuse you:
Digital recording DEFINITELY has it's place. It depends on the type of sound you are trying to achieve, how that sound compliments the artist or song, the budget, and your time frame to record.


Ian

pdog wrote:

"knowing you may be an audio geek may come in helpful for me one day... I'm not an audiophile, I can't afford to be, but I'm intrigued, and do have very good ears..."

_________________


Thanks for the compliment. I'd be happy to give out any advice to you (for what ever it may be worth lol).

By the way, "good ears" is where it all starts ...maybe someday you can turn those into "golden ears" as they are called 


Ian

andews27 wrote:

"So he's a director, not a producer.  A dirigent, or orchestra conductor - the title is used in French for both conductors and film directors."

__________________

Your so right. Just because Rubin does not know a whole lot about the gear or the technical aspect of recording in today's day and age definitely does NOT mean the dude isn't producing. He has his own way of doing it and yes he is CERTAINLY producing and doing his job.

After all, that is all a Producer really is....just a "director of an album" so to speak.

He is quiet and subdued from everything I was ever told about him (I never met or worked with him but I have worked with people who directly worked under him on Wandering Spirit) and is totally down to earth. Rubin treats recording artist stars just like what they are when your the Record Producer....just people your working with. He is open to suggestion as well from anybody that will offer it.

Rubin will actually talk with the band about what they think about the sound during the recordings and might ask for their input. 

Different producers get things done in their own way is all. I agree.


Ian

smokeydusky wrote on Aug 28^th, 2008 at 1:07am:



One of his last credits was as co-producer on Primal Scream's 1991 album "Screamadelica".

While the album wasnt as Stones-influenced as many of their other efforts (its much more house-music orientated), I always thought it a bit ironic that the hit single from their next album ("Rocks" from 'Give out but dont give up') was a quite blatant rip off of two Stones songs that were produced by Jimmy Miller - the obvious one being 'Rocks Off' but, more bizarrely, the bridge from the GHS outtake "Criss Cross Mind"..

Bring back the Glimmer Twins!

No one has mentioned Glyn Johns in this equation. From interviews,I get the impression that he take no shit AND he recorded the "punk rock"Live EP "GOT LIVE IF YOU WANT IT ! " in 64/65 .Worked on lots of classic 60's recordings (as an engineer) before Jimmy Miller teamed up with the Stones.

He had a "huge row" with Keith during the Black and Blue sessions and walked out,never to return.

sc uk

Gazza wrote on Aug 27^th, 2008 at 5:29pm:

Wasn't that Mick recalling how they went in the street in Rubin's fancy white car (Mercedes ?) to play back mixes of "Sweet Thing" and get feedback from guys lurking around? I'll have to dig out that Musician interviews where he mentions that.

In any case, this thread is pretty amazing, not in the least because Ian is finally getting some respect after two plus years of "off the wall" posts, BRAVO !

As a side (but related) note, you guys won't believe what I found in a little antique shop the other day, an embossed Tattoo You promo cover about 50cm/50cm, should I offer it to Ian or sell it for a grand on eBay ?

" HE ALSO GOT KNOCKED OUT BY ROGER DALTREY DURING WHO ARE YOU SESSIONS  "

That is right ! .. Good Postin' Perks

Here .......... you deserve it : Enjoy :