Most definitely.

Its a misconception to date the Stones "golden era" as encompassing the period that Mick Taylor was in the band - because it overlooks the music created in the 14 months before he joined and the undeniable fact that there was a gradual decline in their output which preceded his departure.

Much more realistic to date it back to the first single they made with Jimmy Miller - Jumpin Jack Flash - through to Goats Head Soup, by which time he had burned himself out.

Mick and Keith were at their peak as songwriters between 1968 and the making of Exile in 1971 - and the Stones created their greatest work in that period because they had a fantastic producer who brought out the best in them.

In that period of just over 3 and a half years, no other act in the history of popular music (with the probable exception of Dylan in the mid 60's) has ever produced such a burst of sustained brilliance.

Great producer, some highlights in addition to the Stones are Traffic, Sky, Spooky Tooth, Blind Faith, The Move, Family... I like it!

Didn't he die?

Rick Rubin vs Jimmy Miller.

Discuss.

Am I good or am I good?

Miller and Kimsey produced differently. Miller was a skilled musician, as well as a producer. Hence, he was a "musicians producer". Where as Kimsey was, as Gazza stated more along the lines of the technical side of production.

Kimsey produced with Mick's vocals out in front with a more straightforward mix. Miller produced Jaggers vocals more buried in the mix with a lot of doubling to them. Millers production had depth in it's sound. It was much more organic with a lot of breathing to the instruments sound. Kimsey's production style (most often, but not always) was more over a direct approach, more surfaced based, and tighter .. fitting perfectly in the late seventies and early eighties.

Kimsey produced a few lower end (for Stones standards they were lower end. Still they were fair albums with some memorable tunes on each of them) Stones albums where Miller produced four or five masterworks.

Two different types of production.

Ian

Jimmy Miller was everything a producer should be- a musician,  inspiration giver, knowing what sounds good and how to push the band to do it.  I would give him every bit as much of the credit Mick Taylor gets for that great run of albums.  It's a shame the Stones ate him up and spit him out like so many others.  I know the only person who got him hooked on dope was himself, but the company you keep will kill ya. He was the Stones' version of George Martin.

speedfreakjive wrote:

"This guy has got to be one of the most un-aknowledged and underrated players in the Stones history & producers ever 

just Googled his name and a tiny Wikipedia article  plus a little bit on Timeisonourside, is all I can find on him"

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Your so right speedfreakjive.

Wikipedia doesn't do him justice. It is not any sort of lengthy acclaim to such an outstanding Record Producer. While his work was not totally abundant, the work he did was simply masterful.

I am surprised Wikipedia didn't at least give some more info on his career, personal life, and death in their own sub-categories as this website does with so many other greats.

If you perform certain searches you will find much more info (as almost anything goes when it comes to Google), but still, I definitely see your gripe (and now my gripe as well). The web doesn't provide information on him as all the others and it REALLY should.

The guy was an astounding producer and very skilled musician. What a shame he doesn't get the "just do" he deserves (type in "Rick Rubin" and you'll get a zillion hits and over 100,000 pages of info on him...).

**Miller's production style provided a raunchy rawness ...while at the very same time added touches of polish and additions to the music all while making the tracks sound cohesive and fabulous in a manner I have never heard before. The Black Crows Lions is a really nice piece if you like Miller's style of production.

One thing is certain, true Stones fans (and there are millions of those) will NEVER forget him or what he did.


Ian

sammy davis jr. wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 11:03pm:


Can't say it better even after reading  :smile

rubin is amazing, although there's a big dif. as I see it. Rubin has worked better with older artists, and getting that mazing thing out ogf hwat would seem to be a dry well. I like his earlier work, but it was with bands who already had loud powerful music, like slayer and The Cult. He improved, but not like Miller did with The Stones. I don't think Rubin, if we had a wayback machine, would've done what Miller did in the 70's. Look at the dif. between The Cult's Love album and the follow up electric. Anyone who has heard the Peace album, which is on the limited ed. boxset, has heard the dif. The peace album is The electric album with a different producer.
Eaqual but different and I think Miller wins... until rubin does for The Stones what he did for Cash.

Glencar wrote:

"Rubin actually produces? I read an article on him a few months back & it made him sound very hands-off & mellow."

____________________

Your right. Rubin isn't a "technical producer" at all. He doesn't know much about running the equipment or the gear. Nor is he a "musician's producer". I suppose you could say Rubin is an sound observant producer.

Rubin sits (or lyes)  calm and basically motionless while hearing the artist. After a good longer listen he comes up with a mental check-list on the things he wants in place or to change. He talks directly to the musicians about it first, before the engineer. He focuses on the songs arrangement and style and not much of the "sound" aspect. He always has at least one excellent engineer working the board and taking care of the engineering side of things since he is fairly "light" on the technical stuff. In fact, he'd rather not get involved in touching the board at all.

This is not uncommon. Many producers (except ones like Miller) forget the board all together after they get deep into production. They may suggest certain outboard gear be patched in or ask for a certain sound from the engineer. Half the time they keep an eye on the person (or company) during the mastering process to make sure all is well. After a good number of years working in studios, most people will be able to run a board, or at least know the basics about most just fine. This is why many producers let that part go when they start producing.

It is the knowledge of the song and making it work in the what, when, and how that is the hard part. Also it is the knack of where to record to get good vibes and sound, and with who to call in as session musicians. The knowledge of how to get the band writing great music again. In other words it's things like ...should we begin writing music first or lyrics first with Joe Artist?

This is the key part to learning to produce. Not so much running the gear (although that still has to be in place either with you or someone there). 


Ian

pDog Wrote:

"Ian, I agree with most of what you wrote,although what are your sources, that he doesn't know or get involved with any tech or touching of the boards. I'm just wondering your sources, b/c I've not heard this before!!!

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That is just how I interpret him as a Producer. <<<Ok.. I'll let you off the hook ...that's a joke that I knew would get under your skin.

Here it is seriously:
I went to school for Audio Engineering and Production. It is probably the best Audio Engineering school in the country (if not the world). They have some Grammy winning people teaching there (not that that means anything but it does lend to credibility). One of the instructors there knew of Rubin and he specifically explained this to me. Later, I interned with an engineer in Los Angeles, Elan Trujillo, who had "been around" as far as the Music Industry and recording goes (for what it's worth and on a side note he was real good pals with Dave Jerden, 1rst Engineer on Dirty Work. I am sure William Perks is just frothing at the mouth over that lol). He and a couple people there were quite familiar with Rubin (However, I cannot remember SPECIFICALLY if Elan affirmed Rubin's production style to me when we spoke of him?). Although, we certainly had discussed Rubin (one day he even showed me where Rubin lived and mentioned he sent someone to work with Rubin at one time...so they had connected).   

*In Addition:
I read an article of an interview with Rubin in Rolling Stone Magazine:

Rubin specifically stated in reference to his being a producer almost verbatim ...."I don't know much about running a board, but I know what I want to hear".

**Later:
Then (since I am kind of an Audio geek I suppose), I "youtubed" Rubin doing work in the studio and it showed evidence of what I was told personally concerning his production style.

Well, that's part of my lousy audio resume , for what it's worth.


Cheers,


Ian

I sense a thawing.