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StickyStones Rocks Off Regular Offline Rocks Off Rules You Bastards Posts: 301 Gender:	Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman? Apr 6^th, 2012 at 11:29am I'm of the opinion that Mick Taylor is one of the most underrated guitarists ever and I honestly feel he's up there with the aforementioned guitarists in terms of talent. Anyone else agree?
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FPM Rocks Off Regular Offline Rocks Off Rules You Bastards Posts: 697 Right here in the USA Gender:	Re: Is Taylor up there with Plant, Clapton, Allman Reply #1 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 11:46am He's a WAY better guitarist than Plant!
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Re: Is Taylor up there with Plant, Clapton, Allman
Reply #2 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 11:53am

FPM wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 11:46am:

He's a WAY better guitarist than Plant!

Don't suck my cock

More fluid yes (Page's style was choppy but melodic) but better overall? I don't think so. I mean Page was the SOLE guitarist of Zeppelin and came up with just as many classic riffs as any Stones member ever did. And he played both lead and rhythm live--No small feat. I do wonder: If Taylor had been given more free reign as a Stone, what direction might their music have taken? We see little hints of what a Jagger/Taylor led Stones might've been like in Moonlight Mile, Sway, Time Waits for No One and other tracks. I know Keith and Mick were the founders, but they had a really, really talented guy with them and they should've given him more of a free hand in the studio. Live they did but studio no and I think had they given him as much freedom in the studio as live, he'd be as well remembered as the other guitarists I mentioned.

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Voodoo Chile in Wonderland Unholy Trinity Admin Offline The Stones are back you bastards!!!! Posts: 17,957 Wonderland Gender:	Re: Is Taylor up there with Plant, Clapton, Allman Reply #3 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 12:38pm It's Page, not Plant
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StickyStones Rocks Off Regular Offline Rocks Off Rules You Bastards Posts: 301 Gender:	Re: Is Taylor up there with Plant, Clapton, Allman Reply #4 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 12:48pm Voodoo Chile in Wonderland wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 12:38pm: It's Page, not Plant Yeah I know I realized the typo. I was still sleepy and feeling a little crappy.
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Nellcote Rocks Off Regular Offline So, what's your point? Posts: 2,922 Funifuti	Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman? Reply #5 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 1:12pm He is not on the same continent as these three.
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gimmekeef Rocks Off Regular Offline Posts: 5,759 Ontario Canada Gender:	Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman? Reply #6 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 1:14pm Technically he is a notch below these superstars but overall counting in their writing contributions etc I'm with Nellie......
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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #7 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 1:19pm

gimmekeef wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 1:14pm:

Technically he is a notch below these superstars but overall counting in their writing contributions etc I'm with Nellie......

Well the thing is though is that when Mick/Keith let him shine in the studio, his work and solos and writing was as good as any of the other three. It's just they rarely gave him the freedom in the studio which they gave him live.

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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #8 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 1:48pm

StickyStones wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 1:19pm:

gimmekeef wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 1:14pm:

Technically he is a notch below these superstars but overall counting in their writing contributions etc I'm with Nellie......

Well the thing is though is that when Mick/Keith let him shine in the studio, his work and solos and writing was as good as any of the other three. It's just they rarely gave him the freedom in the studio which they gave him live.

Its only our opinions.....personally you picked 3 of the top 5 of alltime imho...I just dont have Taylor quite there.....

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Mel Belli Rocks Off Regular Offline Rocks Off Rules You Bastards Posts: 1,298	Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman? Reply #9 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 2:16pm At the peak of his powers, he was as good a lead guitarist as those guys—no question. But as a composer/producer, Page is in a league of his own. Clapton doesn't even come close, either.
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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #10 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 3:48pm

I do wonder what it would've sounded like if he had been allowed to compose more songs. I mean the songs he did compose like Moonlight Mile are among the best the Stones did and songs like Sway and Time Waits for No One have been sort of buried by the Stones. And on other songs in the studio, even while he's soloing, he's not as high in the mix as Keith. I mean listen to the way he soloed and what not in the '72 and '73 tours--He was up there with Page.

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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #11 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 4:44pm

StickyStones wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 11:29am:

I'm of the opinion that Mick Taylor is one of the most underrated guitarists ever and I honestly feel he's up there with the aforementioned guitarists in terms of talent. Anyone else agree?

this term underated is BS IMO... unrecognized some are... but rating is opinion... and success doesn't eaqual talent... with that said, if Taylor was a guy who never had a shot in the limelight, he would be someone you would call as good as the so called greats, just not as succesful... Taylor doesn't have a few key components... He isn't a brilliant songwriter, he's not breaking new ground, and isn't a riff guy... and guys he just play alot of leads aren't really going to shine... so my answer is no... with all that said, he was great in Stones and is very good at what he can do!

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uncleson Rocks Off Regular Offline Rocks Off Rules You Bastards Posts: 1,169 USA Gender:	Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman? Reply #12 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 4:55pm Taylor was great but wasnt used to his full potential.
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Paranoid Android Rocks Off Regular Offline The Rocks Off Ladies Rule You Bastards!! Posts: 6,342 Chapel Hill, NC Gender:	Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman? Reply #13 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 7:44pm No where near those guys...they are all a distant 2nd...3rd...and 4th...
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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #14 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 7:46pm

StickyStones wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 3:48pm:

I do wonder what it would've sounded like if he had been allowed to compose more songs. I mean the songs he did compose like Moonlight Mile are among the best the Stones did and songs like Sway and Time Waits for No One have been sort of buried by the Stones. And on other songs in the studio, even while he's soloing, he's not as high in the mix as Keith. I mean listen to the way he soloed and what not in the '72 and '73 tours--He was up there with Page.

Moire like if he had been CREDITED with more of his work...

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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #15 - Apr 6^th, 2012 at 8:37pm

uncleson wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 4:55pm:

Taylor was great but wasnt used to his full potential.

He was used to his full potential, he never did anything better before or after... his only reply should be thank you for the great oppurtunity...

Paranoid Android wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 7:44pm:

No where near those guys...they are all a distant 2nd...3rd...and 4th...

Paranoid Android wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 7:46pm:

StickyStones wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 3:48pm:

I do wonder what it would've sounded like if he had been allowed to compose more songs. I mean the songs he did compose like Moonlight Mile are among the best the Stones did and songs like Sway and Time Waits for No One have been sort of buried by the Stones. And on other songs in the studio, even while he's soloing, he's not as high in the mix as Keith. I mean listen to the way he soloed and what not in the '72 and '73 tours--He was up there with Page.

Moire like if he had been CREDITED with more of his work...

playing lead guitar on songs is not songwriting... all the musicians brought their creative input into songs, that isn't the same as song writing... and Taylor wanted songwriting credit... Where's all the Taylor songs he wrote after leaving, where's his inspiration and creativity? He left bitter wanting more than he deserved, and he got what he earned... Funny how things turnout. And no question that Mick and Keith could be vampires, but they knew how to make it work out in the long run, and if you were blind to it, you missed a great chance to make good money and be famous and get laid... It's a job and too many forget that and think they are entitled to shit they didn't earn... Ronnie made a huge concession on his helping Mick write IORR... but in the long run, looks like it paid off, they gave him a credit later on a dif. song and the best job anyone might want... while Ronnie was playing stadiums and traveling the world Taylor was playing in front of 50 people for $5 a head... look at all the albums ronnie has released as well on his own, where are Taylors records? and Taylor was great in The Stones, but when it ended so did his greatness, not their's... nuff said!

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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #16 - Apr 7^th, 2012 at 12:24am

Pdog wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 8:37pm:

uncleson wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 4:55pm:

Taylor was great but wasnt used to his full potential.

He was used to his full potential, he never did anything better before or after... his only reply should be thank you for the great oppurtunity...

Paranoid Android wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 7:44pm:

No where near those guys...they are all a distant 2nd...3rd...and 4th...

Paranoid Android wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 7:46pm:

StickyStones wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 3:48pm:

I do wonder what it would've sounded like if he had been allowed to compose more songs. I mean the songs he did compose like Moonlight Mile are among the best the Stones did and songs like Sway and Time Waits for No One have been sort of buried by the Stones. And on other songs in the studio, even while he's soloing, he's not as high in the mix as Keith. I mean listen to the way he soloed and what not in the '72 and '73 tours--He was up there with Page.

Moire like if he had been CREDITED with more of his work...

playing lead guitar on songs is not songwriting... all the musicians brought their creative input into songs, that isn't the same as song writing... and Taylor wanted songwriting credit... Where's all the Taylor songs he wrote after leaving, where's his inspiration and creativity? He left bitter wanting more than he deserved, and he got what he earned... Funny how things turnout. And no question that Mick and Keith could be vampires, but they knew how to make it work out in the long run, and if you were blind to it, you missed a great chance to make good money and be famous and get laid... It's a job and too many forget that and think they are entitled to shit they didn't earn... Ronnie made a huge concession on his helping Mick write IORR... but in the long run, looks like it paid off, they gave him a credit later on a dif. song and the best job anyone might want... while Ronnie was playing stadiums and traveling the world Taylor was playing in front of 50 people for $5 a head... look at all the albums ronnie has released as well on his own, where are Taylors records? and Taylor was great in The Stones, but when it ended so did his greatness, not their's... nuff said!

What he said.

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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #17 - Apr 7^th, 2012 at 11:44am

Nellcote wrote on Apr 7^th, 2012 at 12:24am:

Pdog wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 8:37pm:

uncleson wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 4:55pm:

Taylor was great but wasnt used to his full potential.

He was used to his full potential, he never did anything better before or after... his only reply should be thank you for the great oppurtunity...

Paranoid Android wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 7:44pm:

No where near those guys...they are all a distant 2nd...3rd...and 4th...

Paranoid Android wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 7:46pm:

StickyStones wrote on Apr 6^th, 2012 at 3:48pm:

I do wonder what it would've sounded like if he had been allowed to compose more songs. I mean the songs he did compose like Moonlight Mile are among the best the Stones did and songs like Sway and Time Waits for No One have been sort of buried by the Stones. And on other songs in the studio, even while he's soloing, he's not as high in the mix as Keith. I mean listen to the way he soloed and what not in the '72 and '73 tours--He was up there with Page.

Moire like if he had been CREDITED with more of his work...

playing lead guitar on songs is not songwriting... all the musicians brought their creative input into songs, that isn't the same as song writing... and Taylor wanted songwriting credit... Where's all the Taylor songs he wrote after leaving, where's his inspiration and creativity? He left bitter wanting more than he deserved, and he got what he earned... Funny how things turnout. And no question that Mick and Keith could be vampires, but they knew how to make it work out in the long run, and if you were blind to it, you missed a great chance to make good money and be famous and get laid... It's a job and too many forget that and think they are entitled to shit they didn't earn... Ronnie made a huge concession on his helping Mick write IORR... but in the long run, looks like it paid off, they gave him a credit later on a dif. song and the best job anyone might want... while Ronnie was playing stadiums and traveling the world Taylor was playing in front of 50 people for $5 a head... look at all the albums ronnie has released as well on his own, where are Taylors records? and Taylor was great in The Stones, but when it ended so did his greatness, not their's... nuff said!

What he said.

RO needs a like button...

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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #18 - Apr 7^th, 2012 at 5:14pm

Well...the initial question was in terms of TALANT...not song writing...so my opinion stands...Clapton has always bored me to tears...Page is bloated, however the LedZep sound is awesome with Jones...and honestly, I don't know much about Allman...

When I hear Goat's Head Soup...I feel all warm and fuzzy from Taylor's guitar...and his playing on EoM is supurb.

I honestly feel alot of his music is uncredited...the Jagger/Richards machine rolled thru town and left very little to anyone else...the same goes
for the Lennon/McCartney machine...though that one is more believable to me...

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Kilroy Rocks Off Regular Offline I love this place! Posts: 2,863 Mickville Virginny USA Gender:	Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman? Reply #19 - Apr 7^th, 2012 at 6:31pm yes one time And No the rest
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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #20 - Apr 7^th, 2012 at 7:31pm

Paranoid Android wrote on Apr 7^th, 2012 at 5:14pm:

Well...the initial question was in terms of TALANT...not song writing...so my opinion stands...Clapton has always bored me to tears...Page is bloated, however the LedZep sound is awesome with Jones...and honestly, I don't know much about Allman...

When I hear Goat's Head Soup...I feel all warm and fuzzy from Taylor's guitar...and his playing on EoM is supurb.

I honestly feel alot of his music is uncredited...the Jagger/Richards machine rolled thru town and left very little to anyone else...the same goes
for the Lennon/McCartney machine...though that one is more believable to me...

underated and talent are two sperate questions or even topics... I gave my opinion on the talent from my POV.... I think the dif. for me is... The Stones made Taylor better, not he made The Stones better... Page had his own sound and style, that is Zep, Clapton in all his bands and solo stuff has his own sound signature and writes songs galore, and a few were huge hits... Allman as well, not sure what he wrote, but I love his playing... all these guys were driving forces for their bands and themselves... Taylor can't say that! This is why i'm always baffled when people think Taylor somehow got cheated. He felt entitled, which is horrible. Who hasn't worked with a guy, especially a new guy, who thinks he should get paid more and work less... Gotta pay your dues... and as I always say, I love his playing in The Stones... He contributed hugely... I know in my gut, they would've been just as great without him... Beggars Banquet is profff of that, barely any Brian or Taylor, and Let It bleed as well... Taylor really only was there fully for three albums, and the two post Exile are wonderful... but no one looks on them like the big four... enter Wood!!!

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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #21 - Apr 7^th, 2012 at 10:23pm

Pdog wrote on Apr 7^th, 2012 at 7:31pm:

Paranoid Android wrote on Apr 7^th, 2012 at 5:14pm:

Well...the initial question was in terms of TALANT...not song writing...so my opinion stands...Clapton has always bored me to tears...Page is bloated, however the LedZep sound is awesome with Jones...and honestly, I don't know much about Allman...

When I hear Goat's Head Soup...I feel all warm and fuzzy from Taylor's guitar...and his playing on EoM is supurb.

I honestly feel alot of his music is uncredited...the Jagger/Richards machine rolled thru town and left very little to anyone else...the same goes
for the Lennon/McCartney machine...though that one is more believable to me...

underated and talent are two sperate questions or even topics... I gave my opinion on the talent from my POV.... I think the dif. for me is... The Stones made Taylor better, not he made The Stones better... Page had his own sound and style, that is Zep, Clapton in all his bands and solo stuff has his own sound signature and writes songs galore, and a few were huge hits... Allman as well, not sure what he wrote, but I love his playing... all these guys were driving forces for their bands and themselves... Taylor can't say that! This is why i'm always baffled when people think Taylor somehow got cheated. He felt entitled, which is horrible. Who hasn't worked with a guy, especially a new guy, who thinks he should get paid more and work less... Gotta pay your dues... and as I always say, I love his playing in The Stones... He contributed hugely... I know in my gut, they would've been just as great without him... Beggars Banquet is profff of that, barely any Brian or Taylor, and Let It bleed as well... Taylor really only was there fully for three albums, and the two post Exile are wonderful... but no one looks on them like the big four... enter Wood!!!

Enter Wood: Some Girls, which is mostly Mick and Keith. Emotional Rescue: Mostly Mick. Tattoo You: Outtakes going back a decade, the best songs by Keith with one of the biggest singles having MT on lead. Undercover and Dirty Work have been pretty much forgotten. Steel Wheels, ok comeback album...The rest, meh.

Work less? His playing is all over every Stones record he's on, he dominated the shows live. Taylor was there fully for Sticky Fingers, Exile, Goat's Head Soup, and It's Only Rock N' Roll. All the standout tracks from that era either feature him on lead guitar, or feature heavy contributions from him or were penned by him (Honky Tonk Woman, Can't You Hear Me Knockin, Sway, Moonlight Mile, Winter, 100 Years Ago, Dancing with Mr. D, Doo Doo Doo, Hide Your Love, If You Can't Rock Me, Till the Next Goodbye, Time Waits for No One, etc)

The fact is, The Stones made Taylor better AND he made the Stones better.

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Teiz Rocks Off Regular Offline Rocks Off Rules You Bastards Posts: 573 Almere, Amsterdams ugly twin Gender:	Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman? Reply #22 - Apr 8^th, 2012 at 5:08am My answer to this question would be 'whatever'. I don't know anyone that spins albums on which these guys appear back to back in order to find out who's better or eqally good, I just enjoy their stuff or not. But I see you're bending this towards a Mick T vs Ronnie thread. That's lovely...
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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #23 - Apr 8^th, 2012 at 8:08am

StickyStones wrote on Apr 7^th, 2012 at 10:23pm:

Pdog wrote on Apr 7^th, 2012 at 7:31pm:

Paranoid Android wrote on Apr 7^th, 2012 at 5:14pm:

Well...the initial question was in terms of TALANT...not song writing...so my opinion stands...Clapton has always bored me to tears...Page is bloated, however the LedZep sound is awesome with Jones...and honestly, I don't know much about Allman...

When I hear Goat's Head Soup...I feel all warm and fuzzy from Taylor's guitar...and his playing on EoM is supurb.

I honestly feel alot of his music is uncredited...the Jagger/Richards machine rolled thru town and left very little to anyone else...the same goes
for the Lennon/McCartney machine...though that one is more believable to me...

underated and talent are two sperate questions or even topics... I gave my opinion on the talent from my POV.... I think the dif. for me is... The Stones made Taylor better, not he made The Stones better... Page had his own sound and style, that is Zep, Clapton in all his bands and solo stuff has his own sound signature and writes songs galore, and a few were huge hits... Allman as well, not sure what he wrote, but I love his playing... all these guys were driving forces for their bands and themselves... Taylor can't say that! This is why i'm always baffled when people think Taylor somehow got cheated. He felt entitled, which is horrible. Who hasn't worked with a guy, especially a new guy, who thinks he should get paid more and work less... Gotta pay your dues... and as I always say, I love his playing in The Stones... He contributed hugely... I know in my gut, they would've been just as great without him... Beggars Banquet is profff of that, barely any Brian or Taylor, and Let It bleed as well... Taylor really only was there fully for three albums, and the two post Exile are wonderful... but no one looks on them like the big four... enter Wood!!!

Enter Wood: Some Girls, which is mostly Mick and Keith. Emotional Rescue: Mostly Mick. Tattoo You: Outtakes going back a decade, the best songs by Keith with one of the biggest singles having MT on lead. Undercover and Dirty Work have been pretty much forgotten. Steel Wheels, ok comeback album...The rest, meh.

Work less? His playing is all over every Stones record he's on, he dominated the shows live. Taylor was there fully for Sticky Fingers, Exile, Goat's Head Soup, and It's Only Rock N' Roll. All the standout tracks from that era either feature him on lead guitar, or feature heavy contributions from him or were penned by him (Honky Tonk Woman, Can't You Hear Me Knockin, Sway, Moonlight Mile, Winter, 100 Years Ago, Dancing with Mr. D, Doo Doo Doo, Hide Your Love, If You Can't Rock Me, Till the Next Goodbye, Time Waits for No One, etc)

The fact is, The Stones made Taylor better AND he made the Stones better.

The topic here is taken a diversion.
Taylor never will reside in the same continent as the three guitarists noted.
Never is a mighty long time.

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Re: Is Taylor up there with Page, Clapton, Allman?
Reply #24 - Apr 8^th, 2012 at 8:14am

StickyStones wrote on Apr 7^th, 2012 at 10:23pm:

Pdog wrote on Apr 7^th, 2012 at 7:31pm:

Paranoid Android wrote on Apr 7^th, 2012 at 5:14pm:

Well...the initial question was in terms of TALANT...not song writing...so my opinion stands...Clapton has always bored me to tears...Page is bloated, however the LedZep sound is awesome with Jones...and honestly, I don't know much about Allman...

When I hear Goat's Head Soup...I feel all warm and fuzzy from Taylor's guitar...and his playing on EoM is supurb.

I honestly feel alot of his music is uncredited...the Jagger/Richards machine rolled thru town and left very little to anyone else...the same goes
for the Lennon/McCartney machine...though that one is more believable to me...

underated and talent are two sperate questions or even topics... I gave my opinion on the talent from my POV.... I think the dif. for me is... The Stones made Taylor better, not he made The Stones better... Page had his own sound and style, that is Zep, Clapton in all his bands and solo stuff has his own sound signature and writes songs galore, and a few were huge hits... Allman as well, not sure what he wrote, but I love his playing... all these guys were driving forces for their bands and themselves... Taylor can't say that! This is why i'm always baffled when people think Taylor somehow got cheated. He felt entitled, which is horrible. Who hasn't worked with a guy, especially a new guy, who thinks he should get paid more and work less... Gotta pay your dues... and as I always say, I love his playing in The Stones... He contributed hugely... I know in my gut, they would've been just as great without him... Beggars Banquet is profff of that, barely any Brian or Taylor, and Let It bleed as well... Taylor really only was there fully for three albums, and the two post Exile are wonderful... but no one looks on them like the big four... enter Wood!!!

Enter Wood: Some Girls, which is mostly Mick and Keith. Emotional Rescue: Mostly Mick. Tattoo You: Outtakes going back a decade, the best songs by Keith with one of the biggest singles having MT on lead. Undercover and Dirty Work have been pretty much forgotten. Steel Wheels, ok comeback album...The rest, meh.

Work less? His playing is all over every Stones record he's on, he dominated the shows live. Taylor was there fully for Sticky Fingers, Exile, Goat's Head Soup, and It's Only Rock N' Roll. All the standout tracks from that era either feature him on lead guitar, or feature heavy contributions from him or were penned by him (Honky Tonk Woman, Can't You Hear Me Knockin, Sway, Moonlight Mile, Winter, 100 Years Ago, Dancing with Mr. D, Doo Doo Doo, Hide Your Love, If You Can't Rock Me, Till the Next Goodbye, Time Waits for No One, etc)

The fact is, The Stones made Taylor better AND he made the Stones better.

penned? what song did he write? writing is riff, chorus and words... name one... fyi, leads playing and adding ideas to these songs isn't penning... it isn't legally and I don't know any musician that would state otherwise... all bs aside, what did Taylor write, I'm not even sure he claims he wrote songs... He did claim he didn't get recognition... which IMO meant he felt entitled to something... I still don't get the disconect from this idea Taylor did things that were'nt recognized... He was lucky to get in the band, left the band... before and after doing that he had minimal success, but promise... compared to Brain, who we know was a usical prodigy on instruments... but also wasn't a songwriter... maybe we can see how entitlement and jealousy arise... undestandbly, but still... lame... if you're a great musician, that might be all you get... and many songwriters, can't play live or even be in a band... it has too many variables... the constant with Taylor is obvious... can't write, played amazing susatain on lead, never matured past that and left mad... went on to ruin his life with drugs and bad career choices! question still remains, what songs did he write...?

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