ROCKS OFF - The Rolling Stones Message Board

mojoman Rocks Off Regular Offline HMERLS Posts: 6,593 joyzee Gender:	Re: Led Zeppelin. Reply #25 - Jan 18^th, 2012 at 10:33pm yep they didnt give credit or pay their due but the 69 to 72 era before the spaceship, before the laser lights, before chasing the dragons they sure as hell laid down some evil shit...... http://youtu.be/iBZm5fOrHuU
Back to top	« Last Edit: Jan 18^th, 2012 at 10:51pm by mojoman » IP Logged

sweetcharmedlife Rocks Off Regular Offline Do the horrendous to that if you can Posts: 11,943 San Mateo Gender:	Re: Led Zeppelin. Reply #26 - Jan 18^th, 2012 at 10:44pm mojoman wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 10:33pm: yep they didnt give credit or pay their due but the 69 to 72 era before the spaceship, before the laser lights, before chasing the dragons they sure as hell laid down some evil shit....... http://youtu.be/iBZm5fOrHuU What he said.
Back to top	I'll shoot it to you straight and look you in the eye So gimme just a minute and I'll tell you why IP Logged

Zack Rocks Off Regular Offline Chiba Face Rules You Bastards! Posts: 1,729 Dakar Gender:	Re: Led Zeppelin. Reply #27 - Jan 19^th, 2012 at 3:59am They stole that from Eddie Cochran. (Just kidding).
Back to top	Only a crowd can make you feel so alone. IP Logged

Steel Wheels Rocks Off Regular Offline Much love and support to my dear friend Mary! Posts: 2,686 2,000 Light Years From Home Gender:	Re: Led Zeppelin. Reply #28 - Jan 19^th, 2012 at 6:45am Acts ripping off other acts is nothing new. Check this link out about the Stones doing it: http://lloydkahn-ongoing.blogspot.com/2006/10/let-it-bleed-mick-and-keith-ripped...
Back to top	I LIVE FOR THE ROLLING STONES! Registered: Aug 2003, Posts on the old board: 1120 Devoted Stones fan since time began. SMILE. THE ROLLING STONES ARE HERE. IP Logged

Zack

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Chiba Face Rules You Bastards!

Posts: 1,729
Dakar
Gender: male

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #29 - Jan 19^th, 2012 at 11:21am

Steel Wheels wrote on Jan 19^th, 2012 at 6:45am:

Acts ripping off other acts is nothing new. Check this link out about the Stones doing it:

http://lloydkahn-ongoing.blogspot.com/2006/10/let-it-bleed-mick-and-keith-ripped...

Not accurate. LIV was credited to "Payne" on the record. Woody Payne was Johnson pseudonym.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_It_Bleed

Back to top

Only a crowd can make you feel so alone.

IP Logged

Steel Wheels Rocks Off Regular Offline Much love and support to my dear friend Mary! Posts: 2,686 2,000 Light Years From Home Gender:	Re: Led Zeppelin. Reply #30 - Jan 19^th, 2012 at 2:19pm It all depends on the pressing. I can almost be 100% certain I've seen copies of Let It Bleed (both vinyl and CD) that have Mick and Keef's credits on each song.
Back to top	I LIVE FOR THE ROLLING STONES! Registered: Aug 2003, Posts on the old board: 1120 Devoted Stones fan since time began. SMILE. THE ROLLING STONES ARE HERE. IP Logged

Steel Wheels Rocks Off Regular Offline Much love and support to my dear friend Mary! Posts: 2,686 2,000 Light Years From Home Gender:	Re: Led Zeppelin. Reply #31 - Jan 19^th, 2012 at 2:23pm I seem to recall one pressing that had "Tradditional Arrangement by Mick Jagger and Keith Richards."
Back to top	I LIVE FOR THE ROLLING STONES! Registered: Aug 2003, Posts on the old board: 1120 Devoted Stones fan since time began. SMILE. THE ROLLING STONES ARE HERE. IP Logged

The Wick

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Posts: 1,066

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #32 - Jan 20^th, 2012 at 2:06am

This really is quite astonishing. How on earth can they be seen as even vaguely credible. Basically what you have is a talented group of musicians apparently not being able to write some of their biggest hits by themselves and people still raving about them. The Led Zeppelin songs sound unbelievably like the songs they have allegedly copied from, even down to the lyrics on some. It's really rather embarrassing and if I was a Zeppelin fan, I would hang my head in shame. Say what you want about the Stones, but on the whole, they wrote the songs themselves. Would Zeppelin just have been another good cover band if it wasn't for these songs? I knew there was a reason I never liked them.

Back to top

IP Logged

Bitch

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

I always get my Rocks
Off!

Posts: 4,904
FL - USA
Gender: female

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #33 - Jan 20^th, 2012 at 9:22am

The Wick wrote on Jan 20^th, 2012 at 2:06am:

This really is quite astonishing. How on earth can they be seen as even vaguely credible. Basically what you have is a talented group of musicians apparently not being able to write some of their biggest hits by themselves and people still raving about them. The Led Zeppelin songs sound unbelievably like the songs they have allegedly copied from, even down to the lyrics on some. It's really rather embarrassing and if I was a Zeppelin fan, I would hang my head in shame. Say what you want about the Stones, but on the whole, they wrote the songs themselves. Would Zeppelin just have been another good cover band if it wasn't for these songs? I knew there was a reason I never liked them.

I dont embarass that easily. Grin

Zep rocks and if someone thinks they were ripped off then they should of taken some legal action, and if not, fugetaboutit!

Been a long time, been a long time, been a long lonely lonely lonely lonely time

Back to top

IP Logged

The Wick

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Posts: 1,066

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #34 - Jan 20^th, 2012 at 11:44pm

Bitch wrote on Jan 20^th, 2012 at 9:22am:

The Wick wrote on Jan 20^th, 2012 at 2:06am:

This really is quite astonishing. How on earth can they be seen as even vaguely credible. Basically what you have is a talented group of musicians apparently not being able to write some of their biggest hits by themselves and people still raving about them. The Led Zeppelin songs sound unbelievably like the songs they have allegedly copied from, even down to the lyrics on some. It's really rather embarrassing and if I was a Zeppelin fan, I would hang my head in shame. Say what you want about the Stones, but on the whole, they wrote the songs themselves. Would Zeppelin just have been another good cover band if it wasn't for these songs? I knew there was a reason I never liked them.

I dont embarass that easily. Grin

Zep rocks and if someone thinks they were ripped off then they should of taken some legal action, and if not, fugetaboutit!

Been a long time, been a long time, been a long lonely lonely lonely lonely time

I wasn't directly referring to you but rather more to the hordes of Zeppelin fans who somehow think they are far superior to the Stones and the first true rock band and other nonsense like that. However, now that you brought it up, do you honestly believe that they should not be looked down on for seemingly stealing other peoples songs and then crediting themselves with it? Forget about fairness, that just deserves outright criticism. Why don't they come out and just say it and stop pretending? People bag on Mick for trying to act young and making dodgy solo records but those same critics write rave reviews about this same Led Zeppelin who have apparently nicked things off of people and all the while claimed credit for it. Those same critics are probably just embarrassed that they've gushed over a band all these years and can't back track their nonsensical reviews now or don't want to show their lack of music knowledge by indirectly admitting that for all their claims, they didn't know that much about music. I'm just shocked that this hasn't been revealed far more than it has though by ordinary music fans. By the way, Jake Holmes sued Led Zeppelin but I don't know what happened to the case.

Back to top

IP Logged

sweetcharmedlife

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Do the horrendous to that
if you can

Posts: 11,943
San Mateo
Gender: male

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #35 - Jan 21^st, 2012 at 1:54pm

The Wick wrote on Jan 20^th, 2012 at 11:44pm:

Bitch wrote on Jan 20^th, 2012 at 9:22am:

The Wick wrote on Jan 20^th, 2012 at 2:06am:

This really is quite astonishing. How on earth can they be seen as even vaguely credible. Basically what you have is a talented group of musicians apparently not being able to write some of their biggest hits by themselves and people still raving about them. The Led Zeppelin songs sound unbelievably like the songs they have allegedly copied from, even down to the lyrics on some. It's really rather embarrassing and if I was a Zeppelin fan, I would hang my head in shame. Say what you want about the Stones, but on the whole, they wrote the songs themselves. Would Zeppelin just have been another good cover band if it wasn't for these songs? I knew there was a reason I never liked them.

I dont embarass that easily. Grin

Zep rocks and if someone thinks they were ripped off then they should of taken some legal action, and if not, fugetaboutit!

Been a long time, been a long time, been a long lonely lonely lonely lonely time

I wasn't directly referring to you but rather more to the hordes of Zeppelin fans who somehow think they are far superior to the Stones and the first true rock band and other nonsense like that. However, now that you brought it up, do you honestly believe that they should not be looked down on for seemingly stealing other peoples songs and then crediting themselves with it? Forget about fairness, that just deserves outright criticism. Why don't they come out and just say it and stop pretending? People bag on Mick for trying to act young and making dodgy solo records but those same critics write rave reviews about this same Led Zeppelin who have apparently nicked things off of people and all the while claimed credit for it. Those same critics are probably just embarrassed that they've gushed over a band all these years and can't back track their nonsensical reviews now or don't want to show their lack of music knowledge by indirectly admitting that for all their claims, they didn't know that much about music. I'm just shocked that this hasn't been revealed far more than it has though by ordinary music fans. By the way, Jake Holmes sued Led Zeppelin but I don't know what happened to the case.

Does the term.To each their own, mean anything to you?

Back to top

I'll shoot it to you straight and look you in the eye
So gimme just a minute and I'll tell you why

IP Logged

The Wick

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Posts: 1,066

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #36 - Jan 21^st, 2012 at 2:35pm

Sure, to each his or her own and I'm a big believer in that but we're all offering our opinions here- that's sort of the point of the board isn't it? Besides, how far are you going to take that? Opinions may be strong but that's fine. Bitch has her opinions and I have mine and I don't see a problem with that. Both are strong opinions and I happen to think that if these plagiarism claims are true (and they seem amazingly convincing) Zeppelin are a massive fraud who have gotten away with murder for years. I don't see the problem.

Back to top

IP Logged

MrPleasant Rocks Off Regular Offline Posts: 2,677 Xalapa, Veracruz, México Gender:	Re: Led Zeppelin. Reply #37 - Jan 22^nd, 2012 at 12:58am Surely there's one good thing about Led Zeppelin. "Let It Grow".
Back to top	"Bubby being left to die... me Pop now!" && IP Logged

StickyStones

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Rocks Off Rules You Bastards

Posts: 301
Gender: male

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #38 - Jan 23^rd, 2012 at 8:56pm

Led Zeppelin will always be my second favorite band. I've heard the "other versions", but you know what, art includes theft, indirectly or not. And Led Zeppelin's take on those songs was better than the originals. Besides look at the loads of people the Stones have screwed over over the last few decades: Bill (he claims he wrote riffs to some songs and was never credited), Brian, Ry Cooder, Mick Taylor, Billy Preston, etc. Plus 'Anybody Seen My Baby.'

To anyone who looks deep into the Zeppelin issue, the "plagiarism" stops with their Fourth album. Which is funny because Led Zeppelin IV, Houses of the Holy and Physical Graffiti albums are generally considered their best. And none of those included any songs that Zep didn't write except for Over the Hills and Far Away. So to stay they were a 'cover band' is ludicrous. There were some songs on the first 3 albums which were 'stolen', but NOT EVERY SINGLE SONG. It's really all a matter of giving credit. The Stones' first few albums are basically cover albums with one or two original songs; they just gave credit. That's all it comes down to really.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jan 23^rd, 2012 at 8:58pm by StickyStones »

IP Logged

StickyStones Rocks Off Regular Offline Rocks Off Rules You Bastards Posts: 301 Gender:	Re: Led Zeppelin. Reply #39 - Jan 23^rd, 2012 at 9:08pm Fun fact. You wanna talk about rip offs? Listen to the song 'Eighties' by Killing Joke. Compare it to 'Come as You Are' by Nirvana.
Back to top	IP Logged

sweetcharmedlife

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Do the horrendous to that
if you can

Posts: 11,943
San Mateo
Gender: male

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #40 - Jan 23^rd, 2012 at 10:18pm

StickyStones wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2012 at 8:56pm:

Led Zeppelin will always be my second favorite band. I've heard the "other versions", but you know what, art includes theft, indirectly or not. And Led Zeppelin's take on those songs was better than the originals. Besides look at the loads of people the Stones have screwed over over the last few decades: Bill (he claims he wrote riffs to some songs and was never credited), Brian, Ry Cooder, Mick Taylor, Billy Preston, etc. Plus 'Anybody Seen My Baby.'

To anyone who looks deep into the Zeppelin issue, the "plagiarism" stops with their Fourth album. Which is funny because Led Zeppelin IV, Houses of the Holy and Physical Graffiti albums are generally considered their best. And none of those included any songs that Zep didn't write except for Over the Hills and Far Away. So to stay they were a 'cover band' is ludicrous. There were some songs on the first 3 albums which were 'stolen', but NOT EVERY SINGLE SONG. It's really all a matter of giving credit. The Stones' first few albums are basically cover albums with one or two original songs; they just gave credit. That's all it comes down to really.

Back to top

I'll shoot it to you straight and look you in the eye
So gimme just a minute and I'll tell you why

IP Logged

StickyStones

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Rocks Off Rules You Bastards

Posts: 301
Gender: male

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #41 - Jan 24^th, 2012 at 4:48am

sweetcharmedlife wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2012 at 10:18pm:

StickyStones wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2012 at 8:56pm:

Led Zeppelin will always be my second favorite band. I've heard the "other versions", but you know what, art includes theft, indirectly or not. And Led Zeppelin's take on those songs was better than the originals. Besides look at the loads of people the Stones have screwed over over the last few decades: Bill (he claims he wrote riffs to some songs and was never credited), Brian, Ry Cooder, Mick Taylor, Billy Preston, etc. Plus 'Anybody Seen My Baby.'

To anyone who looks deep into the Zeppelin issue, the "plagiarism" stops with their Fourth album. Which is funny because Led Zeppelin IV, Houses of the Holy and Physical Graffiti albums are generally considered their best. And none of those included any songs that Zep didn't write except for Over the Hills and Far Away. So to stay they were a 'cover band' is ludicrous. There were some songs on the first 3 albums which were 'stolen', but NOT EVERY SINGLE SONG. It's really all a matter of giving credit. The Stones' first few albums are basically cover albums with one or two original songs; they just gave credit. That's all it comes down to really.

What does willya mean here?

Back to top

IP Logged

Zack

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Chiba Face Rules You Bastards!

Posts: 1,729
Dakar
Gender: male

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #42 - Jan 24^th, 2012 at 5:11am

StickyStones wrote on Jan 24^th, 2012 at 4:48am:

sweetcharmedlife wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2012 at 10:18pm:

StickyStones wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2012 at 8:56pm:

Led Zeppelin will always be my second favorite band. I've heard the "other versions", but you know what, art includes theft, indirectly or not. And Led Zeppelin's take on those songs was better than the originals. Besides look at the loads of people the Stones have screwed over over the last few decades: Bill (he claims he wrote riffs to some songs and was never credited), Brian, Ry Cooder, Mick Taylor, Billy Preston, etc. Plus 'Anybody Seen My Baby.'

To anyone who looks deep into the Zeppelin issue, the "plagiarism" stops with their Fourth album. Which is funny because Led Zeppelin IV, Houses of the Holy and Physical Graffiti albums are generally considered their best. And none of those included any songs that Zep didn't write except for Over the Hills and Far Away. So to stay they were a 'cover band' is ludicrous. There were some songs on the first 3 albums which were 'stolen', but NOT EVERY SINGLE SONG. It's really all a matter of giving credit. The Stones' first few albums are basically cover albums with one or two original songs; they just gave credit. That's all it comes down to really.

What does willya mean here?

You heard this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czfI66yQUkk

The Crunge could be considered an homage to James Brown but it cops his style pretty completely. Yes it's ludicrous to call them a cover band. What they were is unethical in claiming as their own copyrighted material belonging to others.

Will ya is an old joke around here. At some point in 2004, there was a pissing match about some forgotten topic involving a guy named Jair, who was not a native English speaker, Argentinian maybe. Gazza, as admin, intervened to stop it, and Jair posted in reply "Fuck you Gazza, will ya?" which everyone found hilarious. The phrase became a permanent part of RO lore. Voodoo even made a video around it.

Back to top

Only a crowd can make you feel so alone.

IP Logged

mojoman

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

HMERLS

Posts: 6,593
joyzee
Gender: male

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #43 - Jan 24^th, 2012 at 11:53am

yes intellectual property violations occured and those artists should have been recognised and compensated and it was shitty of them not to do so. not to justify what they did but how much money would have made it to those artists and their families instead of some allen klein type? ahmet signed them to atlantic surely he knew? let us also take into account the nature of popular music and rock and roll in particular which is based primarily in blues which was passed through oral tradition that predate recording and for the most part transcription, the true progenitors may never be known that goes also for their liftings of anglo folk music. as for being a massive fraud that has been perpetuated on a willing public? balderdash!! you are essentially indicting the whole genre of rock music. lets just say that they took great artistic license and through their prodigious talent manufactured a body of work that puts them at the top

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jan 24^th, 2012 at 12:06pm by mojoman »

IP Logged

Zack

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Chiba Face Rules You Bastards!

Posts: 1,729
Dakar
Gender: male

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #44 - Jan 24^th, 2012 at 2:33pm

mojoman wrote on Jan 24^th, 2012 at 11:53am:

yes intellectual property violations occured and those artists should have been recognised and compensated and it was shitty of them not to do so. not to justify what they did but how much money would have made it to those artists and their families instead of some allen klein type? ahmet signed them to atlantic surely he knew? let us also take into account the nature of popular music and rock and roll in particular which is based primarily in blues which was passed through oral tradition that predate recording and for the most part transcription, the true progenitors may never be known that goes also for their liftings of anglo folk music. as for being a massive fraud that has been perpetuated on a willing public? balderdash!! you are essentially indicting the whole genre of rock music. lets just say that they took great artistic license and through their prodigious talent manufactured a body of work that puts them at the top

Zeppelin threads rock! Don't suck my cock

What you say is true, though I for one never used the term "massive fraud." And add I'd add "close to" the top there at the end.

"Isn't this an indictment of our entire American society?"

Back to top

3260736993_0c46550b09_2.jpg (Attachment deleted)

Only a crowd can make you feel so alone.

IP Logged

Bitch

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

I always get my Rocks
Off!

Posts: 4,904
FL - USA
Gender: female

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #45 - Jan 24^th, 2012 at 8:12pm

Tallahassee Lassie sounds just like Roll Over Beethoven. So lots of people took the Chuck Berry sound and copied it because they knew it was good! You know what they say, copying is the highest form of flattery. So many songs sound like other songs! Its a certain style that musicians like so they try to capture the same style. Its a musical progression really.

Back to top

IP Logged

sweetcharmedlife

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Do the horrendous to that
if you can

Posts: 11,943
San Mateo
Gender: male

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #46 - Jan 24^th, 2012 at 9:40pm

Zack wrote on Jan 24^th, 2012 at 2:33pm:

mojoman wrote on Jan 24^th, 2012 at 11:53am:

yes intellectual property violations occured and those artists should have been recognised and compensated and it was shitty of them not to do so. not to justify what they did but how much money would have made it to those artists and their families instead of some allen klein type? ahmet signed them to atlantic surely he knew? let us also take into account the nature of popular music and rock and roll in particular which is based primarily in blues which was passed through oral tradition that predate recording and for the most part transcription, the true progenitors may never be known that goes also for their liftings of anglo folk music. as for being a massive fraud that has been perpetuated on a willing public? balderdash!! you are essentially indicting the whole genre of rock music. lets just say that they took great artistic license and through their prodigious talent manufactured a body of work that puts them at the top

Zeppelin threads rock! Don't suck my cock

What you say is true, though I for one never used the term "massive fraud." And add I'd add "close to" the top there at the end.

"Isn't this an indictment of our entire American society?"

Zack,the really funny thing is that people are arguing this...on 2 different Stones boards 40 years later! That was clever

Everybody sing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaDShCTgiLs

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jan 24^th, 2012 at 9:42pm by sweetcharmedlife »

I'll shoot it to you straight and look you in the eye
So gimme just a minute and I'll tell you why

IP Logged

The Wick

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Posts: 1,066

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #47 - Jan 28^th, 2012 at 12:31am

The old agree to disagree cliche seems apt, but I just get the feeling that a lot of Zeppelin fans are attached to the band because of memories and a desire not to degrade those memories so there are all kinds of arguments being made for what is basically stealing. Before anyone gets upset, I don't know any of you and it may not be the case, but that's just the feeling I get.

It's fine to say someone stole a lick here and there but these songs sound completely identical- not songs that are inspired by another song. Tallahasie Lassie may be inspired by anyone from Chuck Berry to Eddie Cochran but to claims it's just like Roll Over Beethoven is an enormous stretch. Primal Scream did Give Out But Don't Give Up and that's (probably by their own admission) directly inspired by the Stones from 1969-1976. They were mocked for it by some but even that was not even close to being as egregious as this. Liz Phair did Exile in Guyville as a song for song response to Exile. That was inspired by the Stones. She didn't lift entire songs and claim them as her own.

These Zeppelin songs even have almost identical lyrics to some parts of the songs let alone the melodies and the music. Led Zeppelin IV may be great, I don't know because to be honest, I've never liked their music and can't be bothered to listen to and probably never will (Plant's voice and Bonham's bashing is a little too boring for me) but they didn't go from nowhere to making Led Zeppelin IV. They first became popular and established and then did that. A fitting analogy is like athletes who do drugs. There are thousands of unbelievably talented athletes all over the world and many of them are more talented than the world's super stars but many of them don't have the mental strength to make it at the highest level. A lot of the ones who do drugs- either performance enhancing or recreational- need the physical boost or the mental support to get them to that higher level. For me, the achievements of those athletes is largely a fraud. Sure they may have been talented and sure they may have been great but there is a huge element of cheating and stealing there that I can't ignore.

Like I said, I don't think we're going to change each other's minds but everyone has an opinion. Chris Jagger said it best when he said imitation is the sincerest form of rip off.

Back to top

IP Logged

Honky Tonk Man

Rocks Off Regular

Offline

Rocks Off Rules You Bastards

Posts: 2,272
London
Gender: male

Re: Led Zeppelin.
Reply #48 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:13pm

I have no problem as such with Zeppelin's borrowing, but not giving Jake Holmes a credit on Dazed and Confused is still a little baffling - especially considering the Yardbirds used to perform it as a cover-version... only for Page to then tinker with the title - Holmes had penned it as 'I'm Confued' I think and amend the lyrics slightly. The breakdown and solo during the middle-part of the recording is all Page's doing, though.

Back to top

IP Logged