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texile

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Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Jun 14^th, 2010 at 8:44pm

I hate to knock a saint, but I was never a big fan of Parsons. I have the cds and have tried to get into its, but I just can't. I liked the tribute album from a few years ago mainly because the artists covering him, to me, outshone his own versions.
I keep reading about his ghost being on Exile and when you read the GP blogs and sites, you don't dare suggest that his influence may be a bit mythologized.
I get that he hung out with Keith and Keith, like Jagger, is like a sponge, so it was inevitable that GP would have made an impression. But how much? (Keith has also been "blamed" for GP's demise, which is bullshit)
Keith had already been listening to country and maybe GP turned him onto some other shit, but I think, (ducks) that his influence on the Stones is a bit overrated.
Yeah, people always mention "Wild Horses", but that song has a melodic structure that I've never heard in GP. What about Country Honk, which MT turned into Honky Tonk Women....?
As far Exile, Torn and Frayed is another Keith gem which is more complex than anything GP had ever done...and I'm just not hearing him on Shine a Light, Soul Survivor, Let it Loose....
And all this 'Jagger was jealous of Gram..' well, Jagger is a funny, insecure guy, but I just don't see him seriously losing sleep over GP taking his place in the studio.
THe people who wax romantic about GP and Exile are forgetting something: Mick and Keith are musical sponges, they hear, listen and absorb everything, and disregard what doesn't move them: that's what makes them so great and what has allowed them to grow and change.
So am I just not getting something?

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stonedinaustralia

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Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Reply #1 - Jun 14^th, 2010 at 9:12pm

well i tend to agree with a lot of what you say tho I am obviously more of a fan

I really like Parsons voice /singing (as keith has said, his "high lonesome" thing was the real deal) but apart from the odd song (e.g. Hot Burritto #1) his original stuff was not that great -

I loved what he did with the Byrds (Sweet Heart of the Rodeo) and that Sleeplesss Nights LP with Emmylou Harris (mostly country covers) is also a favourite.

But I do agree his "influence" is over-rated. The one thing keith acknowledges and which I susupect is probably true is that he gave him some invaluable tips/lessons in country piano technique

The idea that GP "turned them on" to country music is BS - which is perpetuated by lazy/ill informed music "journalists" - check out Movin' On at the end of Out Of Our Heads - and I recall keith saying the first band he was in, at age 15, did C&W songs.

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Throwaway

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Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Reply #2 - Jun 14^th, 2010 at 9:45pm

His true strength was the delivery of the song, not the songs themselves. He had great originals, sure (1000 Wedding, Song For You, Drugstore Truck Drivin' Man), but could anyone sing a song the way he does any George Jones song? Or even a BeeGees cover! Plus he had a killer band, usually (Neil Flanz, Sneaky Pete, Emmylou, N.D. Smart).

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Mel Belli

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Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Reply #3 - Jun 14^th, 2010 at 10:23pm

stonedinaustralia wrote on Jun 14^th, 2010 at 9:12pm:

The idea that GP "turned them on" to country music is BS - which is perpetuated by lazy/ill informed music "journalists" - check out Movin' On at the end of Out Of Our Heads

Off topic -- and probably mentioned in these parts at some point -- but has anyone ever noticed how Aerosmith used Keith's "Yes, I'm movin'" background vox for "Ragdoll"? Also, on "Draw the Line," they quoted the "Ooh, baby" bits from "My Obsession."

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AngieBlue

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Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Reply #4 - Jun 15^th, 2010 at 4:01am

It is BS that Gram turned Keith on to country music. I know I've read somewhere that his granddad, Gus Dupree, was in a country band in the 1950's.

That said, I really do like Gram. His stuff with Emmylou Harris is a regular listen for me.

It's easy when stars are taken too young to make their influence into more than it was. Gram's career was only going to get bigger. JMHO, but I think that is in part why his influence on Exile tends to be overblown.

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Heart Of Stone

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Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Reply #5 - Jun 15^th, 2010 at 7:10am

From what I read, Gram was a big fan of The Stones, check out one of the early FB video's with him doing a Mick Jagger take off, they were on a boat, & Gram was doing his Jagger, & yes, I don't believe he turned them on to Country, "High & Dry" is a country song, I'm Moving On from December's Children, Beggar's B. has got Country, long before Gram came on the scene, I think his love for heroin also made him a close friend of Keith's too.
I love his Sweethearts of The Rodeo with The Byrds, his "Hickory Wind" is a masterpiece.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bmcT4qieI4

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Gazza

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Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Reply #6 - Jun 15^th, 2010 at 10:14am

texile wrote on Jun 14^th, 2010 at 8:44pm:

II get that he hung out with Keith and Keith, like Jagger, is like a sponge, so it was inevitable that GP would have made an impression. But how much? (Keith has also been "blamed" for GP's demise, which is bullshit)

Indeed it is. They never met again after Parsons left Nellcote.

Two years before he died.

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gimmekeef Rocks Off Regular Offline Posts: 5,759 Ontario Canada Gender:	Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones Reply #7 - Jun 15^th, 2010 at 11:05am 80% of what is attributed to Keith is bullshit. But that other 20% is still a lot of shit in itself!
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The Wick

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Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Reply #8 - Jun 15^th, 2010 at 11:12am

I'm not crazy about Gram Parsons but I think there are some beautiful moments in his songs and his singing. However, what is interesting is how Keith uses this to somehow bring the whole Mick vs. him issue up in almost every interview about Parsons. It's a rare interview where he just talks about him as a musician and a friend without saying how Mick never liked him and how he's possessive and jealous. God knows the real truth but it tends to show how insecure Keith is sometimes and how his ego is as big if not bigger than Mick. I just get the feeling he has always felt Mick got too much of the spotlight so he has to say stuff like this about Gram Parsons to get everyone to pay attention to him and put Mick down. It's interesting that I've never heard Mick bad mouth Parsons or act like he has to prove something every time he talks about him.

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texile

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Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Reply #9 - Jun 15^th, 2010 at 8:04pm

The Wick,
you bring up an excellent point that is worth repeating. I hate to get into the whole Mick vs Keith thing because I love both my Glimmer Twins, but yes, Keith's constant criticisms of Mick over often petty shit (dick size?) has always been a bit, 'He doth protest too much' - and the GP topic is a perfect example.
I have long suspected that Keith is the jealous, possessive one. A few years ago, Jagger made a comment about Keith being an only child, hence, the possesiveness; he also said that Kieth could be a bit of a bigot, judgemental etc....that is the only time I remember Jagger ever acknowledgeing Keith's derogatory statements. As for GP's presence at Nellcote and Jagger's alledged jealously, Heart of the Stone brings up a good point: GP liked heroin, alot. That seemed to be a major component to Keith Nellcote camp fire buddies.....drugs are a great unifier and Jagger, who had just gotten married, was not a junkie, nor were Charlie, Bill and MT. That may have been a bigger factor in Mick steering clear of the Nellcote shenanigans than Jagger's supposed insecurities.
As for GP, Stanley Booth does on and on in an interview about how Jagger was jealous of GP because he was cooler: cooler clothes, cooler look etc....
I suspect GP was the one who wanted to be a rock star, Jagger already was.

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Sioux Rocks Off Regular Offline Brian Jones---Foundation Stone--Golden Stone Posts: 4,176 Virginia, U.S.A. Gender:	Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones Reply #10 - Jun 15^th, 2010 at 11:04pm Speaking of N.D. Smart.....he really got around! I loved the Remains, and he was their last drummer. Then, on to Mountain and Great Speckled Bird {Ian & Sylvia}. Worked with Todd Rundgren, then on to Gram Parsons' band.....nice legacy.
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GotToRollMe

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Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Reply #11 - Jun 16^th, 2010 at 12:05am

texile wrote on Jun 15^th, 2010 at 8:04pm:

The Wick,
you bring up an excellent point that is worth repeating. I hate to get into the whole Mick vs Keith thing because I love both my Glimmer Twins, but yes, Keith's constant criticisms of Mick over often petty shit (dick size?) has always been a bit, 'He doth protest too much' - and the GP topic is a perfect example.
I have long suspected that Keith is the jealous, possessive one. A few years ago, Jagger made a comment about Keith being an only child, hence, the possesiveness; he also said that Kieth could be a bit of a bigot, judgemental etc....that is the only time I remember Jagger ever acknowledgeing Keith's derogatory statements. As for GP's presence at Nellcote and Jagger's alledged jealously, Heart of the Stone brings up a good point: GP liked heroin, alot. That seemed to be a major component to Keith Nellcote camp fire buddies.....drugs are a great unifier and Jagger, who had just gotten married, was not a junkie, nor were Charlie, Bill and MT. That may have been a bigger factor in Mick steering clear of the Nellcote shenanigans than Jagger's supposed insecurities.
As for GP, Stanley Booth does on and on in an interview about how Jagger was jealous of GP because he was cooler: cooler clothes, cooler look etc....
I suspect GP was the one who wanted to be a rock star, Jagger already was.

It's like this with a lot of musicians. Insecurity, jealousy, etc. Most of the time it boils down to the fact that they really are very possessive of each other - it's a kind of love/hate thing. I've seen musicians do and say incredibly silly things to get at each other.

As for Parsons, I'm not a huge Burritos fan, but he did make some beautiful music, as well as having a great rock and roll sensibility. Like so many before and since, if he hadn't died at such a young age I'd have loved to see what he did with his talent. "Sweetheart Of The Rodeo" remains one of my all-time favorite albums, though, and one of the pieces of vinyl I couldn't part with when I sold most of my collection in 1981.

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Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Reply #12 - Jun 17^th, 2010 at 12:20am

Well there is one influence that is absolutely 100% wholly attributable to GP. That would be Keith's bad ass red Nudie suit that he wore on the '69 tour. He copped that whole look from Gram.

I'm a huge fan of Parsons, but I tend to agree. His musical influence while great was rather short lived. Keith has mentioned before that Gram did not really turn The Stones onto country music per se, but he did give them, Keith in particular, a better understanding of the different styles of country music. Keith has stated in quite a few interviews on the subject that Gram really showed him the difference between Nashville Country and Bakersfield Country for example.

For my money, The Gilded Palace of Sin is still one of the best albums ever.

Riffy

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mojoman Rocks Off Regular Offline HMERLS Posts: 6,593 joyzee Gender:	Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones Reply #13 - Jun 17^th, 2010 at 12:25am burrito deluxe is the only one i play on occasion, just can't see what all the fuss was about..........
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corgi37 Rocks Off Regular Offline Rocks Off Rules You Bastards Posts: 1,559 Aussie land Gender:	Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones Reply #14 - Jun 18^th, 2010 at 4:55am They've always loved country. They met Bobbie Keys on their 1st or 2nd tour when he was with George Jones. I'm pretty sure in "Rolling Stones - in their own words" Keith says he got tuning tips from Jones & his band.
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Brainbell Jangler Rocks Off Regular Offline Rocks Off Rules You Bastards Posts: 1,331 Portland, OR Gender:	Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones Reply #15 - Jun 19^th, 2010 at 3:06pm Riffhard wrote on Jun 17^th, 2010 at 12:20am: For my money, The Gilded Palace of Sin is still one of the best albums ever. Riffy I'm with you on that one, brother. Brainy
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jackson cotone Rocks Off Regular Offline Rocks Off Rules You Bastards Posts: 18	Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones Reply #16 - Jun 21^st, 2010 at 9:58am Does anyone remember on the TV special a Charmed Life of Mick Jagger there is a part where he's at Lenny Kravits home and Mick is playing the piano and the song is Hickory Wind. Gram had his moments of influence.
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macdaddy

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Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Reply #17 - Jul 17^th, 2010 at 8:16pm

Brainbell Jangler wrote on Jun 19^th, 2010 at 3:06pm:

Riffhard wrote on Jun 17^th, 2010 at 12:20am:

For my money, The Gilded Palace of Sin is still one of the best albums ever.

Riffy

I'm with you on that one, brother.
Brainy

+1 (and i would add that "sweetheart of the rodeo" is equally as good, and that legacy version with all the gram vocal tunes is a must-have imo)

as for "gilded palace of sin," that whole album has been covered by others - that should tell you something.

one thing that the gram stuff reminds me of, constantly, is everything that chafes me about the eagles. keef seemingly absorbed what gram had to offer, but made it his own at the same time (same deal with ry cooder - rc showed him the tunings and maybe even some of the rhythms, but keef found his own groove, eventually). but the eagles took what gram, and the byrds and the burritos did, and took it to the lowest common denominator, while completely cashing in. but i find no harm in remembering that gram was a strong influence; otherwise -i wouldnt have that pic at the bottom of each of my posts Wink

speaking of all this stuff, i guess there is a sundazed vinyl reissue of some live moby grape (local afficienado chris morris spun a track on his radio show recently). i might have to pick that one up, too - the label did a great job with the first two stooges albums...

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BILL PERKS

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Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones
Reply #18 - Jul 19^th, 2010 at 9:24am

jackson cotone wrote on Jun 21^st, 2010 at 9:58am:

Does anyone remember on the TV special a Charmed Life of Mick Jagger there is a part where he's at Lenny Kravits home and Mick is playing the piano and the song is Hickory Wind. Gram had his moments of influence.

I NOTICED THAT ! GRAM'S APPEAL WOULD BE PURELY IN A COUNTRY TYPE VEIN;IF YOU DONT LIKE THAT TYPE OF MUSIC YOU WONT LIKE GRAM...HE WAS A GREAT SINGER AND COULD REALLY EMOTE A SONG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-od3vmRaLHE

COUNTRY-EMO-ROCK !

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Mr. Sex Drugs Rock n Roll Rocks Off Regular Offline Posts: 309 Gender:	Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones Reply #19 - Jul 19^th, 2010 at 10:50am I've always imagined Keith's Toronto sessions took root in the sessions back when he and Gram were playing country music together
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MrPleasant Rocks Off Regular Offline Posts: 2,677 Xalapa, Veracruz, México Gender:	Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones Reply #20 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 1:03am About "Wild Horses". I prefer Gram Parson's version.
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a.completeunknown Rocks Off Regular Offline Rocks Off Rules You Bastards Posts: 84	Re: Gram Parsons and Exile, Stones Reply #21 - Jul 23^rd, 2010 at 2:22pm MrPleasant wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 1:03am: About "Wild Horses". I prefer Gram Parson's version. Agree. One of a very few songs the Stones do where I prefer a non-Stones version.
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