nankerphelge wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 12:55pm:

   

So you're saying that Obama's international policy is as piss poor as his domestic policy, Nanky?


C'mon he's only been in office for seven months! I mean, yeah, there are increasingly more American troops dying in Afghanistan with no clear agenda at play. I mean it was Obama himself a mere two weeks ago that said he doesn't like to use the word "victory". So what if he promised to close Gitmo before he had any plan to deal with the human excrement types that are housed there. He has so much on his plate don't you know!

I'll even bet that those Russian subs patroling off the east coast of Georgia were well in route when Bush was still in office!

Give him time Nanky! He needs to appease the poor put upon Islamists. He has already put a choke collar on Israel, and given millions to the victims inside the West Bank, and Gaza. I wonder if the victims will be using all that tax payer funded payoff to build new schools?

Yesterday the White House Press Idiot Robert Gibbs said that the White House accepts Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as the "elected president" of Iran. Obama seemingly has no problem throwing anyone under the bus. He has made it part of his political MO. Now he has thrown the Iranian protesters, and the Iranian people under the bus too.



Obama's a genius after all, and He knows that we should not be tossing around offensive terms like Jihad and terrorists. It could make some on the fringe want to do something crazy like, well you know, lob missiles into Israel and kill thousands of infidels around the world.


We must support our president! He has only been in office for seven months you know?!



Riffy

"I am sorry to say that close to 50% of Americans don't care about the "long term" fate of civilization, because they believe Jesus will come back and save them some time in the next 50 years. That this will only happen after things have gone horribly awry on Earth. This is where I see the emergency of this topic."

Wow. That's the exact same way I felt about Obama winning the election. Just substitute "Barack" for "Jesus."

I believe you ARE confusing Old vs New testament and I appreciate the apology.

LJ.

fuman wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 1:40pm:




You're a moron.

You're a moron posting crap that is not only very offensive to Christians, but you are also a liar that is so much of a drone that you don't even know you're lying. You throw out lies like Palin's views on religion, and this total hoax about her belief that the earth being only 6000 years old! That is not true funman, but you have been told it's true so naturally you take it in, and then you spit it right back out. Crap in, crap out. Can you please give us all a link of Palin ever making these claims?


You're a moron because you are making a moral equivalency between Christians and Islamists! That's beyond idiocy! It's flat out lunacy! Please give us all link that proves that Christians are as radical as Islamists.  How about a link that shows how Christians made the world a less safe place to live. It's  pretty easy to find many links on the thousands of Islamic acts of terror every year. Surely you can show us all the thousands of innocent people being killed by these radical Christians?


You have drunk deeply of the left wing Kool Aid. So deeply in fact that you can no longer see that you are spewing lies, and the open animosity of Christians. It's almost as if you have forgotten that it was Christians that founded this nation! I know that is a bit too shocking for you to take in, but it's true funman! The United States of America was founded by Christians on a Judeo-Christian belief system.


They were, for the most part, very religious people in fact funman. And they were, also all Christians, for the most part. Perish the thought!


I have said it before, but it bears repeating, you are a case study in drone-ism. You never question anything that goes against your own self identified ideology. You have your liberal blinders on and you refuse to take them off even for an instant, lest your bubble of illogical liberal crap burst.



Riffy

Pdog wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 2:38pm:



show me a link that proves you're not offensive!!!

OH boy.
Now we are mixing RELIGION and POLITICS???

And ugly ugly mixture.

I've made the point I wanted to make to fuman.
Time to take my leave.
Have I mentioned that we need a Stones Tour?????

LJ.

Religion probably deserves its own thread.  One could deconstruct Christian mythology as an amalgam of earlier myths, as 2000Monkey demonstrated.  We could also discuss the patent absurdity of ideas such as virgin birth or resurrection, or Richard Dawson's convincing argument against the possibility of a supernatural being.

I prefer a more general approach.  Religion's broadest claim for validity and value is that it is the source of morality.  Under this theory, humans are depraved beasts who refrain from slaughtering each other only because of moral teachings deriving from "god" and transmitted by religion.  Of course, this theory ignores the bloodshed inspired by religion.  The more general problem is that it ignores the findings of sociobiology on the survival value of altruism.  Biology teaches us that morality precedes religion rather than deriving from it

On the other hand, an appeal to divine authority can always be, and has repeatedly been, used to justify the most heinous atrocities.  It is no answer that these atrocities pervert the "true" meaning of religion.  As Jesus said, "By their fruit you shall know them."

The best summary of this phenomenon is the following quote:  "Religion is an insult to human dignity.  With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things.  But for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."

Brainbell Jangler wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 3:27pm:


altruism... good word!!! something I see in people of faith, but not in those who claim another religion or race is a problem.

LadyJane wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 11:37am:


Dear LJ,

With a few notable exceptions, like finding mirth in the birther movement, my use of the holy name of Jesus has been to offer His side of the argument. That is, His side as found in His teachings - not in the words of people who wildly misinterpret His teachings for their own purposes.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, pre-emptive war is the most  anti-Christian act I can imagine. And actually, does the Book of Revelations count as His teachings? It's the Revelation of John - although which John is in question - and it talks about Jesus, but I'm not so sure it's a lesson he ever preached while here on earth. Under NO circumstances would He countenance an unprovoked invasion of another country and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents to try to jerry-rig someone's crackpot interpretation of the End Times. Or do you disagree?

Your view of the Bible as "literature' is by no means universal, of course. But you're right, the teachings of Jesus are pretty straightforward.  And almost everything that President Obama is so bitterly denounced for -- sitting down with his enemies, presenting an American image which is humble rather than arrogant, being concerned with helping the least among us rather than being entirely motivated by greed - can be interpreted as being at least closer to the teachings of Jesus than his predecessor.  Make no mistake, the teachings of Jesus are much closer to Karl Marx than they are to Mr. Riffhard's worldview.

So again, I apologize if my use of Jesus' Holy Name offends you.  I think people who use his Name to excuse war are far, far worse.

I would say - correct me if I'm wrong - that the Sermon on the Mount is perhaps the best example of the Teachings of Jesus.  Here it is.

The Sermon On The Mount


   MATTHEW 5-7 (King James Bible Clarified New Testament)

   
   5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he
   was set, his disciples came unto him:
   
   5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
   
   5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of
   heaven.
   
   5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
   
   5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
   
   5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness:
   for they shall be filled.
   
   5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
   
   5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
   
   5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children
   of God.
   
   5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
   for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
   
   5:11 Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you,
   and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
   
   5:12 Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad: for great is your reward in
   heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
   
   5:13 You are the salt of the earth: but if the salt has lost its
   savour, with what shall it be salted? it is thereafter good for
   nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
   
   5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill
   cannot be hid.
   
   5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on
   a candlestick; and it gives light unto all that are in the house.
   
   5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good
   works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
   
   5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I
   am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
   
   5:18 For truthfully I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one
   jot or one small mark shall in no way pass from the law, till all be
   fulfilled.
   
   5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
   and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of
   heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be
   called great in the kingdom of heaven.
   
   5:20 For I say unto you, That unless your righteousness shall exceed
   the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case
   enter into the kingdom of heaven.
   
   5:21 You have heard that it was said of them of old time, You shall
   not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
   
   5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
   without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever
   shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but
   whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
   
   5:23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember
   that your brother has anything against you;
   
   5:24 Leave there your gift before the altar, and go your way; first be
   reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
   
   5:25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are in the way with
   him; lest at any time the adversary deliver you to the judge, and the
   judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison.
   
   5:26 Truthfully I say unto you, You shall by no means come out from
   there, till you have paid the last copper coin.
   
   5:27 You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall
   not commit adultery:
   
   5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after
   her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
   
   5:29 And if your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from
   you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should
   perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.
   
   5:30 And if your right hand offend you, cut it off, and cast it from
   you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should
   perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.
   
   5:31 It has been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give
   her a writing of divorcement:
   
   5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife,
   except for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery:
   and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery.
   
   5:33 Again, you have heard that it has been said by them of old time,
   You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform unto the Lord your
   oaths:
   
   5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it
   is God's throne:
   
   5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem;
   for it is the city of the great King.
   
   5:36 Neither shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one
   hair white or black.
   
   5:37 But let your communication be, Yes, yes; No, no: for whatsoever
   is more than these comes of evil.
   
   5:38 You have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a
   tooth for a tooth:
   
   5:39 But I say unto you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall
   smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.
   
   5:40 And if any man will sue you at the law, and take away your coat,
   let him have your cloak also.
   
   5:41 And whosoever shall compel you to go a mile, go with him two.
   
   5:42 Give to him that asks you, and from him that would borrow of you
   turn you not away.
   
   5:43 You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your
   neighbor, and hate your enemy.
   
   5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
   do good to them that hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use
   you, and persecute you;
   
   5:45 That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
   for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends
   rain on the just and on the unjust.
   
   5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? do not
   even the publicans the same?
   
   5:47 And if you salute your brothers only, what do you more than
   others? do not even the publicans so?
   
   5:48 Be you therefore perfect, just as your Father which is in heaven
   is perfect.
   
   6:1 Take heed that you do not your alms before men, to be seen of
   them: otherwise you have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
   
   6:2 Therefore when you are doing your alms, do not sound a trumpet
   before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets,
   that they may have glory of men. Truthfully I say unto you, They have
   their reward.
   
   6:3 But when you are doing alms, let not your left hand know what your
   right hand does:
   
   6:4 That your alms may be in secret: and your Father which sees in
   secret himself shall reward you openly.
   
   6:5 And when you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites are: for
   they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the
   streets, that they may be seen of men. Truthfully I say unto you, They
   have their reward.
   
   6:6 But you, when you pray, enter into your closet, and when you have
   shut your door, pray to your Father which is in secret; and your
   Father which sees in secret shall reward you openly.
   
   6:7 But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:
   for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
   
   6:8 Be not you therefore like unto them: for your Father knows what
   things you have need of, before you ask him.
   
   6:9 After this manner therefore pray you: Our Father which are in
   heaven, Hallowed be your name.
   
   6:10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done in earth, as it is in
   heaven.
   
   6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
   
   6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
   
   6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For
   yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
   
   6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father
   will also forgive you:
   
   6:15 But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your
   Father forgive your trespasses.
   
   6:16 Moreover when you fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad
   countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto
   men to fast. Truthfully I say unto you, They have their reward.
   
   6:17 But you, when you fast, anoint your head, and wash your face;
   
   6:18 That you appear not unto men to fast, but unto your Father which
   is in secret: and your Father, which sees in secret, shall reward you
   openly.
   
   6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and
   rust corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
   
   6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth
   nor rust corrupts, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
   
   6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
   
   6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore your eye be sound,
   your whole body shall be full of light.
   
   6:23 But if your eye be evil, your whole body shall be full of
   darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great
   is that darkness!
   
   6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one,
   and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the
   other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
   
   6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what you
   shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor yet for your body, what you
   shall put on. Is not the life more than food, and the body than
   clothing?
   
   6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they
   reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are
   you not much better than they?
   
   6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his
   stature?
   
   6:28 And why take you thought for clothing? Consider the lilies of the
   field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
   
   6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was
   not arrayed like one of these.
   
   6:30 Therefore, if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today
   exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more
   clothe you, O you of little faith?
   
   6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What
   shall we drink? or, How shall we be clothed?
   
   6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your
   heavenly Father knows that you have need of all these things.
   
   6:33 But seek you first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and
   all these things shall be added unto you.
   
   6:34 Take therefore no thought for the next day: for the next day
   shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day
   is the evil thereof.
   
   7:1 Judge not, that you be not judged.
   
   7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with
   what measure you mete out, it shall be measured back to you again.
   
   7:3 And why do you behold the speck that is in your brother's eye, but
   consider not the beam that is in your own eye?
   
   7:4 Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull out the speck out
   of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye?
   
   7:5 You hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of your own eye; and
   then shall you see clearly to cast out the speck out of your brother's
   eye.
   
   7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your
   pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn
   again and tear you.
   
   7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock,
   and it shall be opened unto you:
   
   7:8 For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to
   him that knocks it shall be opened.
   
   7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he
   give him a stone?
   
   7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
   
   7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your
   children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good
   things to them that ask him?
   
   7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever you would that men should do to
   you, do even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
   
   7:13 Enter you in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad
   is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in
   there:
   
   7:14 Because narrow is the gate, and constricted is the way, which
   leads unto life, and few there be that find it.
   
   7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing,
   but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
   
   7:16 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of
   thorns, or figs of thistles?
   
   7:17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt
   tree brings forth evil fruit.
   
   7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt
   tree bring forth good fruit.
   
   7:19 Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is hewn down, and
   cast into the fire.
   
   7:20 Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
   
   7:21 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
   kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in
   heaven.
   
   7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
   prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in
   your name done many wonderful works?
   
   7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from
   me, you that work iniquity.
   
   7:24 Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I
   will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
   
   7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew,
   and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a
   rock.
   
   7:26 And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them
   not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon
   the sand:
   
   7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew,
   and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.
   
   7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the
   people were astonished at his doctrine:
   
   7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the
   scribes.

      -------------------------------------------------

   May the Lord bless this presentation of this, His holy Word.

"That is, His side as found in His teachings - not in the words of people who wildly misinterpret His teachings for their own purposes."

I got news for ya, JC.
There are 4 gospels, written by 4 very different authors.
I'm not so convinced that St Matthew, St. Luke, St. John and St Mark, didn't have agendas of their own.

I'm a very different type of Christian.
I wear a St Jude medal around my neck when I go to praise at the altar of Mick.
So who the fuck am I to judge anyone else??

Okay.....this time I mean it.
I'm out of this thread as I can feel the blood pressure rising.

LJ.

Hope LJ doesn't come back and read this, but . . .


It is currently the position of the Catholic Church that condoms SHOULD NOT be used.
They have dispatched thousands of priests to Sub-Saharan Africa, to instruct the tribal people there to NOT USE condoms.

3-4 million Africans die annually from HIV AIDS.


Why do they do such a stupid thing?

Because their Bible tells them to.

Riffhard wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 5:20pm:



- You have no standing to label anybody here "mean spirited".
(unless you're not the one responsible for the posts made by Riffhard)

- Who displays intellectual superiority? Are you the person posting as Riffhard?
(do you read your own rhetoric?)

I would say my position is 'the church is creating havoc' out of it's own self interest.

Nearly 90% of Americans believe in a God. 40% of scientists believe in a God.
I am in a minority of 10% of our population.

All of the science claims in the Bible are wrong. Still think this is something other than a HUMAN'S work?

Your response here is exactly the problem with organized religion. It's taboo to discuss, but that is changing.
When I go over the top, I will apologize.

More 'clues' is EXACTLY what I have.
How can you promise that someone is happier than somebody else?

The secular nations are the nations with the lowest murder rates and the least poverty, and it is claimed the most content citizenry..
(Canada, Netherlands, Sweden, etc . . )

Riffhard wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 6:28pm:



I have about 20 Conservative Christian friends. I mean completely conservative Christian friends. They go for that faith healing stuff, hands on healing. They're smart people, men and women. We have this discussion often, yet I haven't been accused of thinking the way you believe I think. Maybe I lead you to these determinations of me, but previous postings by you allow me to think otherwise. And being "beyond help" from your perspective means nothing as well.
Your summation of white, middle class, and Christian is evil in my mind is not what I am talking about.

There has never been a president that was an atheist. So one would have to be pretty naive thinking they had a chance after stating they have doubt in the existence God. Obama believes in evolution. Somehow that's enough to get elected.

Also, I would hope you don't believe that I am trying to deny you your choice of religion. If so, let me say that I'm not. The majority of people with faith do good things for our society. Take LJ for example, she works at a children's hospital? There is nothing more noble than that in my view. Helping the needy. Giving them comfort. That's not what my point is about. The sheep are mostly good, but even religious moderates give credibility to the hardliners. They provide cover.

Maybe this is too much for you. I know that this is taboo, and you're not allowed to question your religion. It says so in the Bible, and there are pretty stiff consequences, so I'll drop it for now.

Finally, there you go again writing opinion, then citing it as fact in the next line.
I can't accept your "liberal hypocrisy" as proof of anything other than you don't want to have this discussion . . .

Believe it or not, I really have tried to exercise enormous constraint in consideration of the faithful here.

Ok, back to work for me. 4 more hours . . .