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Question: What item is most likely found in the top drawer of Riffy's dresser?

naked pictures of Reagan    
  5 (20.0%)
Barry O voodoo doll    
  3 (12.0%)
Hoffa's body    
  2 (8.0%)
DVDs of "saved by the bell", season 3    
  1 (4.0%)
JC's boss's phone number    
  2 (8.0%)
bucket of chicken    
  5 (20.0%)
three sticks of "secret" deoderant, labels facing out    
  3 (12.0%)
"Eagles Greatest Hits" CD    
  4 (16.0%)




Total votes: 25
« Last Modified by: Starbuck on: Mar 3rd, 2010 at 5:01pm »

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Obama elected President (Read 624,589 times)
glencar
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4525 - Apr 24th, 2009 at 5:13pm
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Wide awake & not liking what I see.
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fuman
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4526 - Apr 24th, 2009 at 5:15pm
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LadyJane wrote on Apr 24th, 2009 at 4:05pm:
"Because the question is not this hackneyed old "ticking time bomb" 
scenario that Lady Jane and Keifer Sutherland posit.  It's whether 
we're on the same level with the terrorists, and whether anyone is 
above the law. Who made the decision that waterboarding ISN'T torture, 
after hundreds of years of it being considered exactly that. Was it "the 
guys in the field"?"

I've actually been pondering my own question for the past 90 minutes and am very torn.

Part of me says "Yes. Do whatever it takes to save the life of your loved one. No brainer".

Another part; likely the part that was raised in a very liberal Northeastern Irish Catholic home says "Wait a minute. What about turning the other cheek? Why did Jesus suffer and die on the Cross? He too begged his Father in the the Garden of Gethsemane to spare him. But He was not spared. He was crucified."

So my point is, this is NOT an easy issue. It's not as black and white as we make it and should NEVER be used as material for political fodder which is EXACTLY what is happening today, imho, in Washington, DC.

What is NOT a difficult issue for me is that YOU, the poster hiding behind the moniker of Jesus Christ, OFFEND ME. Your choice of screen name offends me, your avatar offends me and your sig pic offends me!!

That said. I love living in a Country that allows you the freedom to offend me. I fear that may be in danger.

LJ.



Agree that it is a very difficult consideration and I would probably do anything to stop the harm you mention and would do so knowing that I will have to answer for my actions, but I wouldn't contrast it with turning the other cheek, as nice a sentiment as that is (once was a Catholic myself). Personally, I will never forgive those people. They care as much about us as they do their own, with the bombings that occur everyday over there. They bomb children. They need to be hunted down. That should have remained our focus, not Iraq. We obviously can't get them all, but we really strayed the course.

It is my understanding that the FBI has interrogators that are very competent at extracting info. They do it without waterboarding. Director Mueller told his agents to stay away from this enhanced interrogation stuff as soon as he heard about it. The CIA was never good at this type of interrogation, so they chose to torture as the Administration wanted.



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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4527 - Apr 24th, 2009 at 5:23pm
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"No I wasn't running sadism factories to get phony confessions about 9-11 and it's links to Iraq! It was all about preventing future attacks!"
...
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fuman
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4528 - Apr 24th, 2009 at 5:24pm
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Quote:
TTM, you bore me. No offense.


As for the torture debate, I'm not four square behind actually torturing people. But BUT BUT it's nice to have the threat. And in rare cases, it should be used. Sorry, I'm just one of those people who cares about my country. I wish everyone did too.



I think we all do. Just different opinions about how to take care of it.

It is completely frustrating, what we know about how our enemies treat ours captured overseas, and that we can't do the same or worse to them. Even if it all stopped tomorrow, my mind will want revenge. Hard to turn that off . . .
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Ten Thousand Motels
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4529 - Apr 24th, 2009 at 5:51pm
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Who Authorized The Torture of Abu Zubaydah?
by Andy Worthington, April 24, 2009
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For the defendants of the use of torture by U.S. forces — still led by former Vice President Dick Cheney — this has been a rocky few weeks, with the publication, in swift succession, of the leaked report by the International Committee of the Red Cross (PDF), based on interviews with the 14 “high-value detainees” transferred to Guantánamo from secret CIA prisons in September 2006, which concluded that their treatment “constituted torture” (and was accompanied by two detailed articles by Mark Danner for the New York Review of Books), the release, by the Justice Department, of four memos issued by the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) in 2002 and 2005, which purported to justify the use of torture by the CIA, and the release of a 231-page investigation into detainee abuse conducted by the Senate Armed Services Committee (PDF).


The publication of the full Senate Committee report was delayed for four months, subject to wrangling over proposed redactions, but the Executive Summary, published last December, had already successfully demolished the Bush administration’s claims that detainee abuse could be blamed on “a few bad apples,” and, instead, blamed it on senior officials who, with the slippery exception of Dick Cheney, included George W. Bush, former defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney’s chief of staff David Addington, former Pentagon General Counsel William J. Haynes II, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Richard Myers, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former Justice Department legal adviser John Yoo, former Guantánamo commanders Maj. Gen. Michael Dunlavey and Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, and Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the former commander of coalition forces in Iraq.


Much of the fallout from the release of these memos and reports has, understandably, focused on the inadequacy of the legal advice offered to the CIA for its “high-value detainee” program by the OLC, whose lawyers have the unique responsibility of interpreting the law as it relates to the powers of the executive branch, and whose advice, therefore, provided the Bush administration with what it regarded as a “golden shield,” which would prevent senior officials from being prosecuted for war crimes. However, if it can be shown that the OLC’s advice was not only inadequate, but also tailored to specific requests from senior officials, then it may be that the “golden shield” will turn to dust.


This threat to the “golden shield” probably explain why Dick Cheney’s scaremongering has been shriller than usual in the last few weeks, but what has largely been overlooked to date is another question that poses even weightier challenges for the former administration: if the use of torture techniques on Abu Zubaydah, the first supposedly significant “high-value detainee” captured by the US (on March 28, 2002), was authorized by two OLC memos issued on August 1, 2002, then who authorized the torture to which he was subjected in the 18 weeks between his capture and the moment that Jay S. Bybee, the head of the OLC, added his signature to the OLC memos?


It’s clear that the major reason this question has been overlooked is because, as the ICRC report reveals, Zubaydah was not subjected to waterboarding (an ancient torture technique that involves controlled drowning) until after the memo was issued, but what is also apparent is that the treatment to which he was subjected before the waterboard was introduced also “constituted torture.”


Zubaydah was severely wounded during his capture in Faisalabad, Pakistan, to the extent that, as President Bush explained in a press conference in September 2006, shortly after Zubaydah and 13 other “high-value detainees” had been transferred to Guantánamo from secret CIA prisons, “he survived only because of the medical care arranged by the CIA.” We don’t know if there is any truth to the allegation, made by Ron Suskind in his 2006 book The One Percent Doctrine, that medication was only administered in exchange for his cooperation (it seems likely, but has been officially denied), but we do know, from James Risen’s book State of War, that when CIA director George Tenet told the President that Zubaydah had been put on pain medication to deal with the injuries he sustained during capture, Bush asked Tenet, “Who authorized putting him on pain medication?” which prompted Risen to wonder whether the President was “implicitly encouraging” Tenet to order the harsh treatment of a prisoner “without the paper trail that would have come from a written presidential authorization.”


We also know that, shortly after his capture, Zubaydah was flown to Thailand, to a secret underground prison provided by the Thai government, where, as a New York Times article in September 2006 explained, “he was stripped, held in an icy room and jarred by earsplittingly loud music — the genesis of practices later adopted by some within the military, and widely used by the Central Intelligence Agency in handling prominent terrorism suspects at secret overseas prisons.”


The details of his treatment, “based on accounts by former and current law enforcement and intelligence officials,” were even more shocking. We have become somewhat inured, over the years, to stories of prisoners deprived of sleep for disturbing long periods of time, in which the use of loud, non-stop music — in this case, the Red Hot Chili Peppers — played an integral part.


This in itself is unacceptable, as the use of music is not simply a matter of being forced to listen to the same song over and over again at ear-splitting volume, but is, instead, a component in a program of sleep deprivation and isolation designed to provoke a complete mental breakdown. One of the major reference points for the CIA in the 1950s, when it was deeply involved in investigating the efficacy of psychological torture techniques, was research conducted by Donald Hebb, a Canadian psychologist, who discovered that, “if subjects are confined without light, odor, sound, or any fixed references of time and place, very deep breakdowns can be provoked,” and that, within just 48 hours, those held in what he termed “perceptual isolation” can be reduced to semi-psychotic states.


However, while some interpretation and empathy is required to understand the impact on Abu Zubaydah of his profound isolation in this period, in which, as the Times also reported, he was largely cut off from all human interaction, only occasionally punctuated by an interrogator entering his cell, saying, “You know what I want,” and then leaving, there is no denying the visceral impact of the following description. “At times, Mr. Zubaydah, still weak from his wounds, was stripped and placed in a cell without a bunk or blankets,” the Times explained. “He stood or lay on the bare floor, sometimes with air-conditioning adjusted so that, one official said, Mr. Zubaydah seemed to turn blue” (emphasis added).


Further information about Zubaydah’s treatment in Thailand has not emerged in great detail. In The Dark Side, Jane Mayer noted only that he was “held naked in a small cage, like a dog,” and the ICRC report focused instead on his detention in Afghanistan, from May 2002 to February 2003. What we do know, however, from the Senate Committee’s report, is that an FBI agent was so appalled by his treatment at the hands of CIA agents that he “raised objections to these techniques to the CIA and told the CIA it was ‘borderline torture,’” and that, sometime later, FBI director Robert Mueller “decided that FBI agents would not participate in interrogations involving techniques the FBI did not normally use in the United States.” We also know from Jane Mayer that R. Scott Shumate, the chief operational psychologist for the CIA’s Counterterrorist Center, left his job in 2003, apparently disgusted by developments involving the use of the “enhanced interrogation techniques,” and that “associates described him as upset in particular about the treatment of Zubaydah.”


Moreover, although the ICRC report dealt only with Zubaydah’s treatment in Afghanistan, it’s also clear that the techniques to which he was subjected in Afghanistan, in the approximately two and a half months before the OLC memos were signed, also “constituted torture.”  


In his statement to the ICRC, Zubaydah explained how, even before the waterboarding began, he was strapped naked to a chair for several weeks in a cell that was “air-conditioned and very cold,” deprived of food, subjected to extreme sleep deprivation for two to three weeks — partly by means of loud music or incessant noise, and partly because, “If I started to fall asleep one of the guards would come and spray water in my face” — and, for the rest of the time, until the waterboarding began, was subjected to further sleep deprivation, and kept in a state of perpetual fear.


This array of techniques undoubtedly appears less dramatic than the “real torturing” that followed (in which the waterboarding was accompanied by physical brutality, hooding, the daily shaving of his hair and beard, and confinement in small boxes), but, again, it is critical to try to imagine what two to three weeks of chronic sleep deprivation actually means, and to recall that, by the time Steven G. Bradbury, the Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General, revised the approval for torture techniques in May 2005, it was noted that it was only considered acceptable to subject a prisoner to 180 hours (seven and a half days) of sleep deprivation.  


To understand how torture came to be used before it was officially approved, we need to return to the New York Times article of September 2006, which explained how, according to accounts by three former intelligence officials, the CIA “understood that the legal foundation for its role had been spelled out in a sweeping classified directive” signed by President Bush on September 17, 2001, which authorized the agency “to capture, detain and interrogate terrorism suspects.”  


Significantly, this “memorandum of notification” did not spell out specific guidelines for interrogations, but as later research, and the latest reports have confirmed, the directive led to focused efforts by the CIA, and by William J. Haynes II, the Pentagon’s General Counsel (and a protégé of Dick Cheney), to contact foreign governments for advice on harsh interrogation techniques, and to begin a relationship with a number of individuals involved in the Joint Personnel Recovery Program (JPRA), the body responsible for administering the SERE program (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape), which is taught at U.S. military schools.  


Designed to teach military personnel how to resist interrogation if captured by a hostile enemy, the SERE program uses outlawed techniques derived from techniques used on captured U.S. soldiers during the Korean War to elicit deliberately false confessions, and includes, as the Senate Committee report explained, “stripping detainees of their clothing, placing them in stress positions, putting hoods over their heads, disrupting their sleep, treating them like animals, subjecting them to loud music and flashing lights, and exposing them to extreme temperatures.” In some circumstances, the techniques also include waterboarding, and, as numerous sources — including the recently released reports and memos — have revealed over the last few years, the reverse-engineering of the SERE techniques constituted the bedrock of the administration’s interrogation program, from Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantánamo to the secret dungeons of the CIA.


As we also know, from the pioneering research conducted by Jane Mayer, by the time that the CIA took over Zubaydah’s interrogation from the FBI, in April 2002, the team included Dr. David Mitchell, a retired Air Force SERE psychologist. Thanks to the detailed timeline provided by the Senate Committee, we now know that it was Haynes who first inquired about the applicability of the SERE program to the interrogation of prisoners in December 2001, and we also know that, in April 2002, while “experienced intelligence officers were making recommendations to improve intelligence collection” — which, noticeably, included an assessment by Col. Stuart A. Herrington, a retired Army intelligence officer, that a regime based solely on punishment “detracts from the flexibility that debriefers require to accomplish their mission” — “JPRA officials with no training or experience were working on their own exploitation plan,” and a colleague of Mitchell’s, Bruce Jessen, a senior SERE psychologist, was providing recommendations for JPRA involvement in the “exploitation of select al-Qaeda detainees” in an “exploitation facility” to be established especially for the purpose — which, presumably, turned out to be the secret dungeon provided by the Thai government.


We also know from Mayer that discussions about the CIA’s proposed interrogation techniques, in April 2002, involved numerous other senior officials — beyond the key involvement of Haynes — in meetings in the White House’s Situation Room that were chaired by National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, and attended by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Tenet, Secretary of State Colin Powell, and Attorney General John Ashcroft, and, moreover, that the level of detail provided by Tenet appalled Ashcroft to such an extent that he lamented, “History will not judge us kindly.”  


This is disturbing enough, but what makes it even more chilling is the realization that the tactics being discussed, which, it is clear, led swiftly to their enactment in actual interrogations, were some months away from being authorized by the OLC. As the Times article explained, in what was perhaps its most damning passage, “Three former intelligence officials said the techniques had been drawn up on the basis of legal guidance from the Justice Department, but were not yet supported by a formal legal opinion.”


In my book, this means that, regardless of the validity of the OLC’s opinions, those who authorized the torture of Abu Zubaydah between March 28 and July 31, 2002 are not protected by the OLC’s supposed “golden shield,” and should be prosecuted for contravening the prohibition on the use of torture that, since 1988, has been enshrined in U.S. law. This may not apply to all of those who attended the meetings in the White House (plus Haynes), but it’s inconceivable that the CIA began subjecting Abu Zubaydah to chronic isolation and sleep deprivation with receiving approval from somebody in high office.


It remains to be seen, however, whether the Obama administration is committed to abiding by the laws that President Obama praised so lavishly during his election campaign, or whether, instead, he and his administration are committed to reading from a different book: How to Torture With Impunity And Get Away With It, by former Vice President Dick Cheney and an array of associates, all intoxicated with the thrill of unfettered executive power, which concludes by claiming that you get away with breaking any damn law that you please, so long as you’re voted out of office at the end.
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Starbuck
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4530 - Apr 24th, 2009 at 6:13pm
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Riffhard wrote on Apr 24th, 2009 at 4:10pm:
This is perhaps the best post that I have ever had the pleasure to read from you TTM!

Riffy


gee whiz riffy...you can't mean it's better than "help me name my next door neighbor's daughter's dog, part III"?
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"Why would any sane person want to leave Rocks Off? If you have an issue outside of Rocks Off, handle it. When you return it will be as if you never have left. Once you are here-it's expected you stay. Why waste long cultivated posting skills somewhere else? The outside world will not understand." -Nellie

“You assclowns are destroying this nation.” –Riffy

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glencar
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4531 - Apr 24th, 2009 at 6:15pm
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I like when he posts Creedence videos. THAT'S so not happening!
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Jesus Christ
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4532 - Apr 24th, 2009 at 10:27pm
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LadyJane wrote on Apr 24th, 2009 at 4:05pm:
What is NOT a difficult issue for me is that YOU, the poster hiding behind the moniker of Jesus Christ, OFFEND ME. Your choice of screen name offends me, your avatar offends me and your sig pic offends me!!

That said. I love living in a Country that allows you the freedom to offend me. I fear that may be in danger.

LJ.


It offends Me that any who claim to heed my Word can yet argue in favor of the necessity of torture.

Have they no heard? Have I not been clear?



Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.      

Deuteronomy 32:35 'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.'

Psalm 94:1 O LORD, God of vengeance, God of vengeance, shine forth!

Proverbs 20:22 Do not say, "I will repay evil"; Wait for the LORD, and He will save you.

Proverbs 24:29 Do not say, "Thus I shall do to him as he has done to me; I will render to the man according to his work."

Romans 12:17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.

1 Thessalonians 4:6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

...
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...&&&&"Hey, JC go fuck yourself you little bitch!" - Riffhard&&&&"...Jesus was...a tranny. " - Nankerphelge&&&&&&&&
 
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Starbuck
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4533 - Apr 24th, 2009 at 11:36pm
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Jesus Christ wrote on Apr 24th, 2009 at 10:27pm:
LadyJane wrote on Apr 24th, 2009 at 4:05pm:
What is NOT a difficult issue for me is that YOU, the poster hiding behind the moniker of Jesus Christ, OFFEND ME. Your choice of screen name offends me, your avatar offends me and your sig pic offends me!!

That said. I love living in a Country that allows you the freedom to offend me. I fear that may be in danger.

LJ.


It offends Me that any who claim to heed my Word can yet argue in favor of the necessity of torture.

Have they no heard? Have I not been clear?



Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.      

Deuteronomy 32:35 'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.'

Psalm 94:1 O LORD, God of vengeance, God of vengeance, shine forth!

Proverbs 20:22 Do not say, "I will repay evil"; Wait for the LORD, and He will save you.

Proverbs 24:29 Do not say, "Thus I shall do to him as he has done to me; I will render to the man according to his work."

Romans 12:17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.

1 Thessalonians 4:6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

...


christian lurker???CL???is it really you??!

either that or PDog all hepped up on goofballs.
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"Why would any sane person want to leave Rocks Off? If you have an issue outside of Rocks Off, handle it. When you return it will be as if you never have left. Once you are here-it's expected you stay. Why waste long cultivated posting skills somewhere else? The outside world will not understand." -Nellie

“You assclowns are destroying this nation.” –Riffy

"You can lead a horse to the facts, but you can't make the horse understand the facts if he's a dumbfuck horse stuck on stupid." - Riffy

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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4534 - Apr 25th, 2009 at 9:00am
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Quote from LadyJane on Yesterday at 4:05pm:


What is NOT a difficult issue for me is that YOU, the poster hiding behind the moniker of Jesus Christ, OFFEND ME. Your choice of screen name offends me, your avatar offends me and your sig pic offends me!!

That said. I love living in a Country that allows you the freedom to offend me. I fear that may be in danger.

LJ.


It offends Me that any who claim to heed my Word can yet argue in favor of the necessity of torture.

Have they no heard? Have I not been clear

______________________________________________________________________

Thou shalt be ignored!
11 commandment!

LJ


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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4535 - Apr 25th, 2009 at 12:27pm
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From the 'great "liberal" communicator', Ronald Reagan signing statement ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984:

"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."


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...&&&&.........&&&&"In other words shut the hell up about what others believe. It only makes you look like a small minded snob. "&&&&Riffy
 
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4536 - Apr 25th, 2009 at 12:31pm
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Riffhard wrote on Apr 24th, 2009 at 1:08pm:
I'd love to ask Khalid Sheik Mofuckhim what he would rather have done to him. Would he rather be waterboarded 186 times. Or would he have preferred to be beheaded once?


Riffy


Anything that needed to be done 186 times over a month couldn't have been that effective especially with the ticking timebomb scenerio that people here love to mention. The Japanese used waterboarding to get info about the USA's WMDs . . . look at where that got them!!!
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...&&&&.........&&&&"In other words shut the hell up about what others believe. It only makes you look like a small minded snob. "&&&&Riffy
 
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4537 - Apr 25th, 2009 at 1:35pm
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i have watched this torture debate with interest.

what can i say? it's easy to say you would be against torture...but if some nutjob was holding my sons hostage, and pulling the fingernails of some other nutjob would get information out of the guy, i'd be the first one in line with a pliers.
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"Why would any sane person want to leave Rocks Off? If you have an issue outside of Rocks Off, handle it. When you return it will be as if you never have left. Once you are here-it's expected you stay. Why waste long cultivated posting skills somewhere else? The outside world will not understand." -Nellie

“You assclowns are destroying this nation.” –Riffy

"You can lead a horse to the facts, but you can't make the horse understand the facts if he's a dumbfuck horse stuck on stupid." - Riffy

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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4538 - Apr 25th, 2009 at 1:48pm
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Starbuck wrote on Apr 25th, 2009 at 1:35pm:
i have watched this torture debate with interest.

what can i say? it's easy to say you would be against torture...but if some nutjob was holding my sons hostage, and pulling the fingernails of some other nutjob would get information out of the guy, i'd be the first one in line with a pliers.


The majority of cases where these methods have been used, are against people we suspect are thinking about holding your son hostage and haven't yet done it or worse yet never intended to do it at all. Either we operate as a nation of laws or we scrap the whole thing become a nation of vigilantes.
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...&&&&.........&&&&"In other words shut the hell up about what others believe. It only makes you look like a small minded snob. "&&&&Riffy
 
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4539 - Apr 25th, 2009 at 2:05pm
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monkey_man wrote on Apr 25th, 2009 at 1:48pm:
Starbuck wrote on Apr 25th, 2009 at 1:35pm:
i have watched this torture debate with interest.

what can i say? it's easy to say you would be against torture...but if some nutjob was holding my sons hostage, and pulling the fingernails of some other nutjob would get information out of the guy, i'd be the first one in line with a pliers.


The majority of cases where these methods have been used, are against people we suspect are thinking about holding your son hostage and haven't yet done it or worse yet never intended to do it at all. Either we operate as a nation of laws or we scrap the whole thing become a nation of vigilantes.



cue death wish soundtrack...........
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glencar
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4540 - Apr 25th, 2009 at 3:50pm
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monkey_man wrote on Apr 25th, 2009 at 12:27pm:
From the 'great "liberal" communicator', Ronald Reagan signing statement ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984:

"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."



The Great Ronaldus Magnus didn't have a terrorist threat to worry about.
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4541 - Apr 25th, 2009 at 5:22pm
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"The majority of cases where these methods have been used, are against people we suspect are thinking about holding your son hostage and haven't yet done it or worse yet never intended to do it at all. Either we operate as a nation of laws or we scrap the whole thing become a nation of vigilantes. "

I agree with your overall sentiment.
It is a difficult subject because torture, like pornography, is a very subjective issue.
One man's "harsh interrogation" is another's "torture."

These OLC memos were attempts to define the difference between the two based on the "laws" that were in place, and they are subject to interpretation, just like any law.  
But, contrary to your post, the people at issue were not simply people that thought about doing bad things, they carried them out and they were at the highest levels of planning future actions.  The US government had every reason to believe that these people knew about future plans, and they needed to know what they could and could not do to get information from them.  

And, truth be told, these interrogation methods did not include the breaking of bones or lopping off of body parts.  They were methods designed to strip people of their will through discomfort, sleep deprivation and fear.  Are they hard-core.  Yeah, sure they are.  But are they within the bounds of legality?  That is precisely what the memos were designed to do - consider the techniques in view of the laws that governed.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't look at this carefully.
We should.
But we should also look at it honestly and realize that these techniques were not designed to be judge, jury and executioner on some people that would likely not have shown the same restraint in a comparable situation.
 
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glencar
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4542 - Apr 25th, 2009 at 5:33pm
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For me, torture is looking at those morons in Nanky's sig picture. Your mileage may vary...
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4543 - Apr 26th, 2009 at 11:08am
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To put this torture debate into some kind of perspective, liberals should try and think about it in a completely different way. It's safe to say that the attack of 9/11 was most certainly an act of war. It was not, as many liberal beltway types like to spew, a matter of legality. This was an unprovoked act of war on our country, and for that matter, an act of war against the west in general.

More people died on 9/11 than did at Pearl Harbor, and these were non-military causualties as well.

So with that in mind I would argue that the true torture was not perpetrated on the evil bastard that planned that infamous attack. This animal had a doctor on standby and there was never a chance for him to be killed. The mere threat of death, and the fear of drowning notwithstanding, there was no intent to kill the evil bastard. Though I would argue there should have been. As LJ points out war is a nasty business, and no one is nastier at it than a group of radicals that are certain that they are acting in Allah's will.

No, the real torture would be what this animal perpatrated on countless innocent men, women, and children. I would wager that being held captive at 35,000 feet by a bunch of radicalized Islamic fucks with the full knowledge that the next few minutes would be your last is considerably more tortuous than having water poured over your face. Knowing that very very soon you, and your child sitting in the seat next to you would soon be vaporized in an attack against your own country. You want to shed a tear for a torture victim than look no further than all the innocent people that  knowingly were playing out their final minutes on earth at the mercy of jihadist animals.

I see zero reason to cry foul over waterboarding when the president was acting with the very recent attack of 9/11 on his mind. I will tell you this. If the Democrats, and Obama in particular, try and put anyone on trial for those actions than it will blow up in their faces. The anger that such trials would fan throughout this country would utterly destroy the Democrat party, and Obama's current approval numbers would sink like a stone. Obama's already the most partisan president in recent history, and if he adds trials to the list of things that he wants to do "right now" then he will pay a huge price, and so too will the nation.


Trials?! These lawyers, and agents should recieve medals!



Riffy
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« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2009 at 11:24am by Riffhard »  

...&&&&...&&&&...&&&&...&&&&"When all government...in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided...” Thomas Jefferson&&&&"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, liberty decreases." — Thomas Jefferson&&&&&&&&We're not old men.We don't bother about petty morals--Keef&&&&Actually, it only takes one drink to get me loaded. Trouble is, I can't remember if it's the thirteenth or fourteenth. &&-- George Burns&&&&&&I ain't no leftist!-Bob Dylan&&&&"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a brave and scarce
 
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4544 - Apr 26th, 2009 at 11:42am
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nankerphelge wrote on Apr 25th, 2009 at 5:22pm:
"The majority of cases where these methods have been used, are against people we suspect are thinking about holding your son hostage and haven't yet done it or worse yet never intended to do it at all. Either we operate as a nation of laws or we scrap the whole thing become a nation of vigilantes. "

I agree with your overall sentiment.
It is a difficult subject because torture, like pornography, is a very subjective issue.
One man's "harsh interrogation" is another's "torture."

These OLC memos were attempts to define the difference between the two based on the "laws" that were in place, and they are subject to interpretation, just like any law.  
But, contrary to your post, the people at issue were not simply people that thought about doing bad things, they carried them out and they were at the highest levels of planning future actions.  The US government had every reason to believe that these people knew about future plans, and they needed to know what they could and could not do to get information from them.  

And, truth be told, these interrogation methods did not include the breaking of bones or lopping off of body parts.  They were methods designed to strip people of their will through discomfort, sleep deprivation and fear.  Are they hard-core.  Yeah, sure they are.  But are they within the bounds of legality?  That is precisely what the memos were designed to do - consider the techniques in view of the laws that governed.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't look at this carefully.
We should.
But we should also look at it honestly and realize that these techniques were not designed to be judge, jury and executioner on some people that would likely not have shown the same restraint in a comparable situation.
 




torture and porno?
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4545 - Apr 26th, 2009 at 4:14pm
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Yeah, well, you know it when you see it, or them.

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/rids/20090426/i/r327315129.jpgx=400&y=301&q=85&sig=jTOGZf4...

"We just want to get with you all today to announce that we are under a public health emergency, CHOMP CHOMP, but it is not that serious, CHOMP, and we don't need CHOMP to be nervous.  CHOMP."
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glencar
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4546 - Apr 26th, 2009 at 6:08pm
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This story shouldn't be a surprise to ANYONE who isn't a 200 monkey type...


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21695.html
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4547 - Apr 26th, 2009 at 8:40pm
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Quote:
monkey_man wrote on Apr 25th, 2009 at 12:27pm:
From the 'great "liberal" communicator', Ronald Reagan signing statement ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984:

"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."



The Great Ronaldus Magnus didn't have a terrorist threat to worry about.


The family's of the victims of the Beruit barracks bombing and the families of the Pan Am 103 bombing would beg to differ! Also don't forget Bin Laden was a freedom fighter that we armed to fight the Soviets during the Reagan Administration. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
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« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2009 at 8:41pm by monkey_man »  

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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4548 - Apr 26th, 2009 at 10:46pm
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LadyJane wrote on Apr 25th, 2009 at 9:00am:
Quote from LadyJane on Yesterday at 4:05pm:



______________________________________________________________________

Thou shalt be ignored!
11 commandment!

LJ




Ignoring Jesus is an absolute prerequisite when you're making excuses for torture.

...
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glencar
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Re:  Obama elected President
Reply #4549 - Apr 27th, 2009 at 3:15pm
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monkey_man wrote on Apr 26th, 2009 at 8:40pm:
Quote:
monkey_man wrote on Apr 25th, 2009 at 12:27pm:
From the 'great "liberal" communicator', Ronald Reagan signing statement ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984:

"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."



The Great Ronaldus Magnus didn't have a terrorist threat to worry about.


The family's of the victims of the Beruit barracks bombing and the families of the Pan Am 103 bombing would beg to differ! Also don't forget Bin Laden was a freedom fighter that we armed to fight the Soviets during the Reagan Administration. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Those were horrific attacks but they weren't on US soil. I'm guessing we used less-than-honorable ways to solve those cases...
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