A Reply to Gotablouse:


gotdablouse wrote on Jul 5^th, 2008 at 6:36am:


Regardless of whatever man that does this it would take a certain type of person to bring out the "musicianship" of a group. Especially a group in The Rolling Stones class. They are the only ones in that class.  19 times out of 20 bringing out the musicianship in a group is not accomplished by trying to strong arm them (only in certain situations). In this situation a group of the Rolling Stones age and stature it simply would not make them adhere, but they would go the other way.

You can say what you want. That is the reality of the matter. My opinion is mostly based on facts and incite from seasoned recording professionals that I had the privilege of knowing and working with (Michael Reid, Elan Trujilio, and one other that must remain anonymous) who have actually worked with Mick and Rick Rubin on separate occasions. Two of these people said it probably would not be a good idea at all and the last person was "ify" and unsure on whether or not that could work. He acted as if it would be risky.

Mr. Gotablouse, without being rude I am going to have put it like this. I will take these peoples word on it any day versus yours. This is also coupled with my own opinion. I know a bit about recording and the production process myself. These people have been there for years. I more less just scratched the surface compared to them. They know the industry quite well, know production styles, seen the two sides of this debate work in person in the very same room and know how each interacts with the artist and runs things. You should now take MY word for it. Tattoo You or no Tattoo You, take this one from me.


Ian

Response to Poison Dart:

Guy (or Maam), I hear where your coming from as far as your wanting a super great record from The Stones.

As far as the Rick Rubin factor - Please See my responses to Gotablouse on this subject.


I think Voodoo Lounge was darn good. I think BTB was good as an album (although not a personal fav but it is rated as a "good" album in my opinion). I think ABB is "pretty good" by Stones standards (which are high) but more-over was a "needed" album" in terms of The Rolling Stones needing to return to basics and put out a simplistic, direct, hard hitting disc without any poppy overtones or really, much any poppy influence at all. That one was for the fans that longed for that. It was needed in my opinion.

Now, Can they do better than any of the last three? Hmmm I truly don't know. I am usually the one who always keeps the faith around here but truly I do not know on this one. Sure, I would LOVE TO DEATH to see them put out a huge hit album again. Even a few top ten singles. Can you imagine that? That would make my year ten fold!!! But with today's radio we both know that is almost impossible.

but my question to you is ....IS IT STILL POSSIBLE to get that out of them in 2008/2009?

forget the radio top ten hits. Can they do even better than Voodoo Lounge and A Bigger Bang if they REALLY and Truly put everything they had into it with a hit making producer that tried to also stay gounded to The Stones musical roots?

COULD they do even better? Or is that their limit today, in any circumstance?

I am curious what you, and the board TRULY feel. I truly would be surprised if they surpassed the quality of any of the past three works (remember they were pretty good works over all). Could they make a great album again? At their age? Could they even sound great at their age again as in "Yeah, great fuckin tune"..... "This song kicks ass and it's classic" I realize those last two phrases sound silly but ...you know what I mean. Could they?

Ian

gotdablouse wrote on Jul 7^th, 2008 at 2:59am:


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Gotablouse wrote:

"1. No, bluntly put the songs on the last 3 records generally don't hold their weight, other than a few here and there. Maybe 2 on VL, 4 on B2B and...1/2 on ABB, that's pathetic by their standards or anyone's. This has certainly not been helped by a dull production, particularly on VL and ABB."

Ok. You said "don't hold their weight" ....meaning what? ... slightly below average? Clear the air. What exactly are you saying here? I am used to some here completely knocking ABB. A few also knock VL. It was my assessment you were headed or are in that same direction.

Still, they are not below average songs (if that is what you mean). Don Was's production is of the best in the world. Yes, he is much better than Rubin as far as a production standpoint goes. Don knows much more about that part than Rubin does. Was knows what mics, processors, positions, and mastering techniques to use in each situation where it would benefit the album. Was piocks the right mixing engineer for the recordings at hand. One that would compliment the specific recording. Rubin does not know as much from a  techie standpoint. He openly admits that. So you thinking Rubin would do better simply "does not hold water". Glossy, or really going heavy, or even too different on the production side of things does not mean better. This can lead to material being "over-produced" . with a band that sounds like The Stones this is much easier screw up. Even adding little nuances will make them sound over produced if you don't do it perfectly or....just leave things as-is. Like I said with how the Stones are often trying to spruce things up would hurt a track more than help it.

Ian

What's a 'ninch' ?

lol Gazza ! 

i'm suprised you haven't been "coleman'd" for that!

Gazza wrote on Jul 7^th, 2008 at 2:47pm:


Sorry it is actually "Ninche".

If you are serious I suppose I'll explain being as your from the UK. It may be an American thing (not sure).

These are my definitions but this is what it means basically-

A specific aspect of something.
A certain area of something.
A unique part of something or a specific branch of something that is someones strong point or the aspect which gains them notoriety.

As in.... this is Rubins ninche.

Rubins particular "ninche" as a record producer in the most recent part of his career far as recording artists as of late is his stripping down the production and reviving an artists songwriting skills. Taking someone that is in a rutt, out of their slump while laying off the glossy and slick production and sticking to their core sound. That is Rubins ninche (at least right now).

I realize this is exactly what many here want him to do with The Stones. I realize this is specifically what many here feel The Stones need exactly. Hell, it seems (before ABB) that would of been just what the doctor ordered right. Well maybe they do. But Rubin is not the dude that can get that done with them.

I'll admit it really looks great on paper but ....my opinion (and some quality insiders I spoke to on this very debate) think it would be a big mistake.

*Not everyone here can understand that. They think "well Rubin did it with Cash so he needs to do that with The Stones. Thats what they need". It is not that simple. Johny Cash is not The Rolling Stones and The Rolling Stones are not Johnny Cash.  Certain producers get along well with certain artists and vice-versa.

Hint Hint ....in case Gotablouse and some others do not understand....you have to not only respect your producer you have to like them and want to listen to them as well. Preferably the artist and the producer will actually "click". This is necessary before you can put out really good music for him (or her).

Rick Rubin and The Rolling Stones would never "gel" together. Ask people in the industry who know how the camps operate and who know and have had the pleasure of working with the two's separate personalities and many of them will tell you that. In a perfect world it would be nice to get them together. However in the real world they would never get that sewed up. Hell Mick was so fed-up with it in 93 he just left the tracks for Wondering Spirit it in Rubin's hands and went his own way after the tracks were recorded. He wanted away from it. Double that with both he and Keith who would be much less cooperative under Rubin's control. The Stones would never record for someone and then say screw what he does with the record and mixing of the album in this day and age. He was not around for the mixing because he and Rubin were not seeing eye to eye. This is my understanding at least.

I realize Rubin did Micks best solo album...but that was not easy and it did not go as Mick wanted it in the recording or the release of the material. Mick would NEVER stand for it now, on a Stones album and Keith would be worse. Remember Babyface, Puffdaddy, and the Dust Brothers on BTB   ....it didn't fly and they chucked them.

*If Rubin could not get along with Mick Solo in 93 how on earth could he try this with both Mick AND Keith (Keith yikes) in 2008? I just can't see them getting on.


Ian

left shoe shuffle wrote on Jul 7^th, 2008 at 10:19pm:




LOL!!!



Riffy

Ian Billen wrote on Jul 7^th, 2008 at 9:33pm:


Fair enough Ian. I don't completely agree but I think you're right on some points. By the way, I never remember Puff Daddy ever being on BTB or on any outtakes. I don't think he's ever worked with the band in any way- Thank God.

Gazza wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2008 at 6:18am:


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Don Was doesn't give orders. that is not his style. Besides, as you know The Stones would never stand for it. Don Was "steers" a band in the direction he thinks is right for what they want, and what he thinks it could be like.

However, Don Was is not that much of a push-over to The Stones as he says in interviews and as this board feels he is.

Remember in VL he "insisted" to Mick that he deliver lyrics to songs that were not yet written in order to form the songs around the lyrics. Mick wanted to make the songs and fill in the lyrics as they went along and dis-agreed with Was adamantly. Regardless, Was's approach for that album worked well for it. 

Also in that album Mick and Charlie were working on some good African grooves that Was steered the band away from consistently. I remember Mick remarking in that he wondered what would of came out of those grooves if Was had not kept steering them away from those grooves.

Then again, that was 14 years ago. The Stones may have changed a bit in their production out-look toward Was since then but still...  He didn't always say yes to The Stones as many think he does here.

Ian

Agreed, his production is dull and certainly doesn't help average songs, that's why B2B stands out in their post Exile production, it had different ideas and different producers. Everyone may not like Juiced, but at least it's memorable, who outside some crazy mothers remembers "Baby break it down" or half of the studd on SW, VL or ABB.

What Ian wrote is indeed what I remember from the VL era, except that Was bugged Mick for lyrics on the B-Sides, he probably should have worried more about the music for the B-sides, just blues jams, I guess he didn't want another "Cook, Cook"! Mick was also unhappy about Was nixing the grooves although Charlie said they were just grooves. If you listen to the fabulous VB, VS, VR boots, you'll see that Keith also had great grooves in store, it kills me that stuff like "Make it Now" was not used, this is Keith's best song in decades, the fact that Was passed on it and that Mick and Keith dind't insist on using it shows they don't care much about the music anymore IMHO.

VL is really a poor man's Exile, the average songs and by the numbers playing are in no way redeemed by the dull and boring production.

Don Was's production is dull? Hmmmm, well that opinion is surprising. I am really surprised at how many here don't care for him and some others don't care for his production.

I know so many audiophiles and engineers and they could say nothing bad about him and held him on a pedestal. Many thought he was beyond other producers (as I do). ....Not because of who he was or who he worked with but because of how good they thought he recorded/produced people. Some of these people were not real easy to impress as well being as they sort of had ego's.


Ian

The Wick wrote on Jul 8^th, 2008 at 4:54pm:


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When I first heard "Love Is Strong" I knew they had someone really good. I can remember exactly where I was, who I was with, and was remarking to them how "rich and raw" sounding it was and noted that it is a very different groove the Stones style evolved into on that song. I was impressed from the first listen and have been impressed ever since.

*In addition I can distinctly remember how impressed I was from the first few singles I heard on the radio. I noted it was far better and totally renewed sounding in naturalness and smoothness compared to Steel Wheels. It was not forced and they sounded like a band again. It sounded natural again.

Have you heard The Black Crowes Lions album? WOW! How about Iggy Pop Avenue B?

Ian