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Undercover (some political content) (Read 5,017 times)
lotsajizz
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Re: Undercover
Reply #25 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 4:44am
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Nellcote wrote on Jun 28th, 2008 at 5:14am:
Enough with the pablum.  





Indeed.  The pablum that the occupation of Iraq has something to do with 9-11.....
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"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man."  Dr. Johnson.
 
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TenThousandMotels
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Re: Undercover (some political content)
Reply #26 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 7:00am
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MrPleasant wrote on Jun 28th, 2008 at 7:49pm:
This thread is kinda funny.


I'm glad someone finds it amusing.  You rock!

That's OK Mr. P. , I've got kind of a warped sense of humor myself.  Let's go get drunk
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TenThousandMotels
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Re: Undercover
Reply #27 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 7:12am
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Nellcote wrote on Jun 28th, 2008 at 5:14am:
Hey TTM, major kudos to your brother, for serving our country.


Thanks. he's a good lad. I think he's got about 22 years added up. He's one of my few relatives that I never discuss politics with. We pretty much know what each others opinions are anyway. My nephew in doing the ROTC thing in college. My bother was in Northern Iraq during Gulf War I, he said that he never shot at an Iraqi soldier because they were always out of firing range. The US would go forward and the Iraqis would pull back.

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Re: Undercover
Reply #28 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 7:37am
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Quote:
"Enough with the pablum."

TTM LOVES pablum! And Barry O'Bama will deliver as much as he likes. YES WE CAN!


I'm not voting for Obama. But the only republican I'm voting for is Suzy-Girl. That's the only race in Maine that has national implications this year...like control of the Senate.

...
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TenThousandMotels
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Re: Undercover (some political content)
Reply #29 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 8:03am
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Glimmer Twin wrote on Jun 28th, 2008 at 10:26pm:
Politics aside (I side with Riffhard, by the way) Undercover is an excellent song, and frankly under rated.  


I side with Riffy too....on alot of stuff. Just not this. Riffy, as far as I can tell, and I only "know" him from the boards, is good person and a nice guy.  They say war is hell for good reason. It divides people....for one thing.

...
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Re: Undercover (some political content)
Reply #30 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 11:03am
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"   They say war is hell for good reason. It divides people....for one thing.  "


" War is one Hell of a way to settle a dispute . "  ( Keith John Moon , 1908 )

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TenThousandMotels
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Re: Undercover (some political content)
Reply #31 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 11:15am
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http://www.blackcommentator.com/283/283_welcome_home_shut_up_rockwell_guest.html

There are two kinds of courage in war - physical courage and moral courage. Physical courage is very common on the battlefield. Men and women on both sides risk their lives, place their own bodies in harm’s way. Moral courage, however, is quite rare. According to Chris Hedges, the brilliant New York Times war correspondent who survived wars in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and the Balkans, “I rarely saw moral courage. Moral courage is harder. It requires the bearer to walk away from the warm embrace of comradeship and denounce the myth of war as a fraud, to name it as an enterprise of death and immorality, to condemn himself, and those around him, as killers. It requires the bearer to become an outcast. There are times when taking a moral stance, perhaps the highest form of patriotism, means facing down the community, even the nation.”

More and more U.S. soldiers and Marines, at great cost to their own careers and reputations, are speaking publicly about U.S. atrocities in Iraq, even about the cowardice of their own commanders, who send youth into atrocity-producing situations only to hide from the consequences of their own orders. In 2007, two brilliant war memoirs - ROAD FROM AR RAMADI by Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia, and THE SUTRAS OF ABU GHRAIB by Army Reservist Aidan Delgado - appeared in print. In March 2008, at the Winter Soldier investigation just outside Washington D.C., hard-core U.S. Iraqi veterans, some shaking at the podium, some in tears, unburdened their souls. Jon Michael Turner described the horrific incident in which, on April 28, 2008, he shot an Iraqi boy in front of his father. His commanding officer congratulated him for “the kill.” To a stunned audience, Turner presented a photo of the boy’s skull, and said: “I am sorry for the hate and destruction I have inflicted on innocent people.”

The Winter Soldier investigation was followed by the publication of COLLATERAL DAMAGE: AMERICA’S WAR AGAINST IRAQI CIVILIANS, by Chris Hedges and Laila Al-Arian. Based on hundreds of hours of taped interviews with Iraqi combat veterans, this pioneering work on the catastrophe in Iraq includes the largest number of eyewitness accounts from U.S. military personnel on record.

The Courage to Resist

We cannot understand the psychological and moral significance of military resistance unless we recognize the social forces that stifle conscience and human individuality in military life. Gwen Dyer, historian of war, writes that ordinarily, “Men will kill under compulsion. Men will do almost anything if they know it is expected of them and they are under strong social pressure to comply.” “Only exceptional people resist atrocity,” writes psychiatrist Robert Lifton.

How much easier it is to surrender to the will of superiors, to merge into the anonymity of the group. It takes uncommon courage to resist military powers of intimidation, peer pressure, and the atmosphere of racism and hate that drives all imperial wars.

Silencing the Witnesses to War

War crimes are collective in nature. Especially in wars based on fraud, soldiers are expected to lie - to their country, to their community, even to themselves. The silencing process begins on the battlefield in the presence of officers, power-holders who seek to nullify the perceptions and personal experience of troops under their command.

In his war memoir, Aidan Delgado describes attempts of his commanders to suppress the truth about Abu Ghraib. First his captain says the Army has nothing to hide, Abu Ghraib is just a rumor. But then the captain continues: “We don’t need to air our dirty laundry in public. If you have photos that you’re not supposed to have, get rid of them. Don’t talk about this to anyone, don’t write about it to anyone back home.” In the U.S. military, the truth is seditious.

Two years ago, Marine Sergeant Jimmy Massey published his riveting autobiography (written with Natasha Saulnier) in France and Spain. How the Marine Corps - through indoctrination and intimidation - transforms a homeboy from the Smoky Mountains of North Carolina into a professional killer who murders “innocent people for his government” is the subject of Massey’s unsettling, impassioned, Jar-head raunchy, and ultimately uplifting memoir, COWBOYS FROM HELL. (No U.S. publisher has picked up the book. A Marine who speaks truth to power is not without honor save in his own country.) In Chapter 18, Jimmy describes a seemingly minor encounter with his captain. Here Massey gives us a look into the process of human denial in its early phase.

Massey has just participated in a checkpoint massacre of civilians. His sense of decency, his sanity, is still in tact. Like any normal human being, he is distraught. The carnage of the war, the imbalance of power between the biggest war machine in history and a suffering people devoid of tanks and air power - the sheer injustice of it all - begins to take its toll on Massey’s conscience.

In the wake of the horrific events of the day, his captain is cool. He walks up to Massey and asks; “Are you doing all right, Staff Sergeant?” Massey responds: “No, sir. I am not doing O.K. Today was a bad day. We killed a lot of innocent civilians.”



Fully of aware of the civilian carnage, his captain asserts: “No, today was a good day.”

Relatives wailing, cars destroyed, blood all over the ground, Marines celebrating, civilians dead, and “it was good day”!

The Massey incident goes beyond the mendacity of military life. It concerns the control, the dehumanization of the psyches of our troops.

As one Vietnam veteran put it years ago: “They kept fucking with my mind.”

In 1994 Jonathan Shay, staff psychiatrist in the Department of Veterans Affairs, published a pioneering work on post traumatic stress – Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character. According to Shay, who recorded volumes of testimony from Vietnam veterans, commanders routinely try to efface the perceptions and the normal feelings of compassion among American troops. Military necessity, including the ever-present need for political propaganda, determines what is perceived, and how it is perceived, in war.

It was an extremely common experience in Vietnam, Shay writes, to be told by military superiors dealing with crime and trauma: “You didn’t experience it, it never happened, and you don’t know what you know.” And it was fairly common for traumatized soldiers to say to reporters: “It didn’t happen. And besides, they had it coming.” Shay recorded the testimony of one veteran who, in great anger, describes the pressures to alter his perceptions of collective murder.

“Daylight came, and we found out we killed a lot of fishermen and kids...You said to the team, ‘Don’t worry about it. Everything’s fucking fine.’ Because that’s what we were getting from upstairs. The fucking colonel says, ‘Don’t worry about it. We’ll take care of it. We got body count.’ They’d be handing out fucking medals for killing civilians. So in your mind you’re saying, ‘Ah, fuck it, they’re just gooks.’ I was sick over it, after this happened. I actually puked my guts out...But see, it’s all explained to you by captains and colonels and majors. ‘Fuck it, they was suspects anyways. You guys did a great job. Erase it. It’s yesterday’s fucking news.’”
Willful Ignorance at Home

The collective process of denial on the battlefield eventually extends to the homeland. Returning soldiers, to be sure, are often honored, but only so long as they remain silent about the realities, the pathos, the absurd evils of war. Willful public ignorance is a source of pain for veterans.

Ernest Hemingway’s brilliant short story, Soldier’s Home, published in 1925 after World War I, gives us insight into the reluctance of civilians to address the psychic needs of soldiers back from war.

The simply told story is about a young man named Krebs who returns to his home in Oklahoma. At first Krebs does not want to talk about the war. But soon he feels the need to speak - to his family, his neighbors and friends. But as Hemingway tells us, “Nobody wanted to hear about it.” His town did not want to learn about atrocities, and “Krebs found that to be listened to at all he had to lie.”

There’s the rub. His ability to assimilate into civilian life depended on his willingness to fabricate stories about the war. Soldiers are not only expected to lie on behalf of the military during the course of war, they are also expected to participate in homecoming rituals that preserve the civilian fantasy of war’s nobility.

In Hemingway’s story, the pressure to lie is so powerful, Krebs begins to manufacture stories about his experiences in battle - just to get along, just be able to lead a normal life.

Repression, however, is a major cause of mental illness and loneliness. Krebs morale deteriorates. He sleeps late in bed. He loses interest in work. He withdraws into himself.

That’s all Hemingway tells us. It’s a quietly told story, all the more powerful for its understatement.

There is a connection between Hemingway’s war-informed fiction and real life. As Shay notes, there is a tension between a soldier’s need to communalize shame and grief and the unwillingness of civilians to listen to troops whom they sent into battle. One Vietnam veteran told the following story:

“I had just come back from Vietnam and my first wife’s parents gave a dinner for me and my parents and her brothers and their wives. And after dinner we were all sitting in the living room and her father said: ‘So, tell us what it was like.’ And I started to tell them, and I told them. And do you know that within five minutes the room was empty. They were all gone, except my wife. After that I didn’t tell anybody what I had seen in Vietnam.”
Welcome home, soldier. Now shut up.

Notwithstanding clichés and pieties about support for troops, those who promote war are often the least likely to share the burdens and memories of war when soldiers return. When Ron Kovic, who was paralyzed from the chest down during the war in Vietnam, steered his wheelchair down the aisle of the Republican National Convention in 1972, the delegates spat on him and cheered for Nixon - “Four more years.”

W.D. Erhart, Vietnam veteran and author of Passing Time, never forgot the horrific episodes of his tour in Vietnam. In his first autobiography, he tells a friend about his speech at a Rotary Club. “I even put on a coat and tie and went to the Rotary Club. The Rotary Club, for chrissake. I laid it all out for ‘em. I told ‘em about search and destroy missions, harassment and interdiction fire, winning hearts and minds, all that stuff...Was I ever sharp that day.

“Now listen. You won’t believe this. I got done and nobody said a word. No applause. Nothing. Then this skinny old fart shaped like a cold chisel gets up and says he’s a retired colonel, and he thinks we should keep on pounding those little yellow bastards until they do what we say or we kill ‘em all, and he tells me I can’t be a real veteran because a real veteran wouldn’t go around badmouthing the good old U.S. of A., and the whole place erupts in thunderous applause.”


Welcome home, soldier. Now shut up.

Today Georgia Stillwell is a mother of a 21-year-old Iraqi war veteran. Her son is now homeless, unemployed, and despondent. Early one morning he drove his car over an embankment. She says that her son is a mere physical shell of himself. “My son’s spirit and soul must still be wandering the streets of Iraq.” It is not simply what happened in Iraq, but how veterans are treated at home when they seek to unburden their souls, that reinforces post-traumatic stress. On the night he drove the car off the road, he was crying, talking about the war. “His friends tell me he talks about the war. They describe it as ‘crazy talk.’ He wants the blood of the Iraqis he killed off his hands.”


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« Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2008 at 11:38am by TenThousandMotels »  
 
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TenThousandMotels
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Re: Undercover
Reply #32 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 12:09pm
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Riffhard wrote on Jun 27th, 2008 at 8:51pm:
Not to mention that it shows that you seemingly have no problem throwing your own brother's fellow troops, and indeed your own brother as well, under the bus, and describe them all as terrorists just for good measure.
Riffy  


I didn't throw Pat Tillman under the bus. The MSM did. Pat's brother, who also was an army ranger, had quite alot to say about that. Who threw Tillman under the bus?   
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Re: Undercover (some political content)
Reply #33 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 12:34pm
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Who's the lady lawyer from NYC who's now doing time in the gulag for defending the blind shiek?
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Re: Undercover (some political content)
Reply #34 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 12:41pm
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I'm happily married, so please stop sending me wedding propositions.
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Re: Undercover (some political content)
Reply #35 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 12:50pm
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If i ever get into trouble I want to keep this guy on retainer.

...
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Re: Undercover
Reply #36 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 1:51pm
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TenThousandMotels wrote on Jun 29th, 2008 at 1:10pm:
Nellcote wrote on Jun 28th, 2008 at 5:14am:
Hey TTM, major kudos to your brother, for serving our country.
Curious, have you ever talked to anyone who had a family member
perish on 9/11?  I was at a corporation this week where walking
out the door was a memorial to 9 who had perished.  Talking to
employees there, there was not one who did not think what is
happening in Iraq or Afganistan was not right.  Furthermore,
they support more action of this ilk in the attempt to irradicate
such filth, that before 9/11, and to this day, is intent upon roasting
our US carcass over a fire of death right here in our country.  In your little
lean-to in Maine.   Your doing well in the copy & paste department with James Madison.
What would Mr. Madison think about our country not maintaining the
proper safeguards which let a band of Arabs take over four airplanes
crashing them into three buildings, and a field, where thousands died.
We should just not do anything?  That these losers could obtain flying
lessons, go undetected at airports, reek havoc as they did, killing thousands of
innocent citizens, because our country pre 9/11 did nothing to weed out
the trash which had infiltrated our borders?  
Enough with the pablum.


Call it what you want.
Inside job?
False flag operation?
Go along to get along?

LOL. The problem is....at least your probelm is TRUTH. ...and Facts. The fact is that it was an Isreali /American operation that brought down those towers. Put that in your Masshole pipe and smoke it.






ROTFLMAO! You have gone around the bend several times over in this thread alone! That you would buy into the insane conspiracy theory concerning 9/11 is bizzare in the extreme.

Here's your hat TTM. Sized to fit all people that believe anything that reeks of stupidity.


...



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...&&&&...&&&&...&&&&...&&&&"When all government...in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided...” Thomas Jefferson&&&&"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, liberty decreases." — Thomas Jefferson&&&&&&&&We're not old men.We don't bother about petty morals--Keef&&&&Actually, it only takes one drink to get me loaded. Trouble is, I can't remember if it's the thirteenth or fourteenth. &&-- George Burns&&&&&&I ain't no leftist!-Bob Dylan&&&&"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a brave and scarce
 
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Re: Undercover (some political content)
Reply #37 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 2:02pm
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I'd rather wear a tin foil hat than chains and shackles.
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Re: Undercover (some political content)
Reply #38 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 2:11pm
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TenThousandMotels wrote on Jun 29th, 2008 at 2:02pm:
I'd rather wear a tin foil hat than chains and shackles.



Or you can be like myself and others and wear neither. Your choice though.


Riffy
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...&&&&...&&&&...&&&&...&&&&"When all government...in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided...” Thomas Jefferson&&&&"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, liberty decreases." — Thomas Jefferson&&&&&&&&We're not old men.We don't bother about petty morals--Keef&&&&Actually, it only takes one drink to get me loaded. Trouble is, I can't remember if it's the thirteenth or fourteenth. &&-- George Burns&&&&&&I ain't no leftist!-Bob Dylan&&&&"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a brave and scarce
 
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Re: Undercover
Reply #39 - Jun 30th, 2008 at 5:51pm
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TenThousandMotels wrote on Jun 29th, 2008 at 7:37am:
Quote:
"Enough with the pablum."

TTM LOVES pablum! And Barry O'Bama will deliver as much as he likes. YES WE CAN!


I'm not voting for Obama. But the only republican I'm voting for is Suzy-Girl. That's the only race in Maine that has national implications this year...like control of the Senate.

...



suzy creamcheese?
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Re: Undercover
Reply #40 - Jul 2nd, 2008 at 7:07pm
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TenThousandMotels wrote on Jun 29th, 2008 at 7:37am:
Quote:
"Enough with the pablum."

TTM LOVES pablum! And Barry O'Bama will deliver as much as he likes. YES WE CAN!


I'm not voting for Obama. But the only republican I'm voting for is Suzy-Girl. That's the only race in Maine that has national implications this year...like control of the Senate.

...

The Dems will keep the Senate so that race actually has little importance.
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