Howzabout somebody start a Stones related music thread?

Here's my last post from the "old board" about the likely edits of the MSG Sympathy.

The old thread was here:

http://novogate.com/board/968/242201-1.html

At least for the time being.

Anyway, AHEM:

The Apple Acetate has Jagger singing the "Just as every cop is a criminal" verse right before the two solos. Only two verses - Please allow and Just as Every cop. It does not have the two verses before it. The Ya Ya's version has three verses - Please allow, Stuck Around, and Watched with Glee, no Cop as Criminal verse. That's about the only difference aside from Jagger's jabbers during Taylor's solo.

Early versions barely feature a Taylor solo at all - it's definitely the song that they developed and screwed with most on the '69 tour. The Detroit Sympathy, as presented on the 1969 Soundboard Collection, also features the duelling solos almost directly back to back, although there is an eight bar "get on down" chorus between the solos. Same with whatever version that is where Jagger improvs into Hey Jude at the end of the song.

Did they edit out the eight "get on down" bars between solos on Ya Ya's? Maybe. The 20 second between solo vamp is there on the boot I've got called Stoned MSG, but it's clearly an entirely different version than the Ya Ya's one. As far as an edit to the solos on the Ya Ya's version - the most that could have been done was a 20 second snip between them. Not transpositions on other sides of verses or anything.

If they did take it out, I think it was a brilliant edit, same with most of the edits and add-ons on Ya-Ya's. It's the only live record I can think of where I don't find post production work distracting. A record is not a concert - it's a by-definition simulation. At the time they were putting this album together they were the best rock and roll record makers in the world, and so they took genius basic tracks from MSG and made them an even greater get down rock and roll experience. Result: Best album ever. By Love You Live they have mostly lost, forgotten, or forgone this skill, although the El Macambo side has it in spades and they clearly spent a lot of time editing that thing together - it ends with a guy yelling "Sit Down!" for a reason.

As far as why there are no versions that sound like the Ya Ya's Sympathy, there's also no version of Satisfaction that I've heard that is as good as the MSG version as seen on Gimme Shelter (edited, yes, but there's no Jagger sermon to compare to the no lies/no bullshit one), and no other version of the Under My Thumb/I'm Free medley a la the Stoned MSG boot. It is safe to say that they were on FIRE at MSG and played above even their range.

You can hear the allegedly complete version of the song in an embedded MP3 right here:

http://www.rollingstonesnet.com/yaya.htm

Why are you throwing "ahem" back at me?  As I am sure is the case with you, the Ya Yas version of those solos is indelibly burned into my brain from 25 years of repeated listening.  On the acetate that played when you click the link, I did not hear any edit whatsoever, only the inclusion of the fourth verse and the lack of the "get on down" overdubs) -- nor did I read about one.    >:(

Take it easy.  The ahem was me clearing my throat as I was getting ready to quote myself, and was directed at no one.

And, no, there is no difference between when the solos come in in that link.  They are exactly the same.  But that acetate also has post production work, so it's possible that it was ALWAYS edited between the solos.  It is also possible that they spontaneously played it like this - just like Jagger spontaneously goes into his "I ain't gonna give you no lies" rant on Satisfaction and the band follows him.  

I think we are on the "same side" of this debate, essentially.  So chill :willya

Consider me chilled.  Just a little sensitive as the previous discussion got a little testy.

Well good, because we're eventually going to have to discuss the post-solo segment and whether or not THAT is shortened.   ;)

ok, so I am not an expert on this topic but, is Keith's solo overdubbed at all?

speedfreakjive wrote on Apr 14^th, 2008 at 2:36pm:

ok, so I am not an expert on this topic but, is Keith's solo overdubbed at all?

That's a good question, I beleave that much of the overdubb is on Micks song, but that just my guess.

I have never read about Keith's solo being overbubbed.  But it would not surprise me if a note or two was not smoothed or shaved for musical reasons.  

I have always heard that the overbubbing on this song was Jagger's vocals during the Taylor solo.  I think that there are lots of guitar overbubs on Midnight Rambler, but not on Sympathy.

Here is lot of interesting reading about "ya-yas" recording ...

http://www.rollingstonesnet.com/Sympathy.htm

Nasty Habits wrote on Apr 14^th, 2008 at 3:18pm:

I have always heard that the overbubbing on this song was Jagger's vocals during the Taylor solo.  I think that there are lots of guitar overbubs on Midnight Rambler, but not on Sympathy.

No, there's no guitaroverdubs. If you listen to the audience recording of that performance, it's quite the same. As ChrisM's website that Axl79 put a link to, reads....there's nothing but vocal overdubs on GYYYO.

No, there's no guitaroverdubs. If you listen to the audience recording of that performance, it's quite the same. As ChrisM's website that Axl79 put a link to, reads....there's nothing but vocal overdubs on GYYYO.[/quote]

you sure Erik - i swear you can hear  one of taylor's lines in Love in vain  - sounds a bit 'unnatural' to me

stonedinaustralia wrote on Apr 14^th, 2008 at 7:05pm:

you sure Erik - i swear you can hear  one of taylor's lines in Love in vain  - sounds a bit 'unnatural' to me

I have never taken the time to sit down and compare the audience recordings and GYYYO note by note;  - as a lot of people have done so allready...it would be a waste of time. But I was listening to the Nov 28th (2nd show) aud recording a few days ago, and "Midnight Rambler" is just like the official version...save for the vocals.
"Love In Vain" comes from Baltimore...and I haven't noticed any differences with the GYYYO version; but I'm not an authority on this. I trust Chris M's site and other references for this, though.

Erik_Snow wrote on Apr 14^th, 2008 at 4:34pm:

Nasty Habits wrote on Apr 14th, 2008 at 3:18pm: I have always heard that the overbubbing on this song was Jagger's vocals during the Taylor solo.  I think that there are lots of guitar overbubs on Midnight Rambler, but not on Sympathy. No, there's no guitaroverdubs. If you listen to the audience recording of that performance, it's quite the same. As ChrisM's website that Axl79 put a link to, reads....there's nothing but vocal overdubs on GYYYO.

OK, fair enough, although I would not be surprised if the accents in the Well You Heard About the Boston . . . section were at least doubletracked in post . .

Hey SIA - what's up brother?  

Ya Ya's was sublime.  They were truly the greatest rock and roll band in the world on those November nights in 1969.

macdaddy wrote on Apr 15^th, 2008 at 7:21am:

checking in. (i will have something to contribute later)

That sounds misterious ...

Nasty Habits wrote on Apr 15^th, 2008 at 7:15am:

. Hey SIA - what's up brother?

i'm good man - lots of weeding as usual and you?

still waiting for "the future is unwritten" to hit the stores

and SAL is not here til late May - You seen it yet??

Erik_Snow wrote on Apr 15^th, 2008 at 3:44am:

I have never taken the time to sit down and compare the audience recordings and GYYYO note by note;  - as a lot of people have done so allready...it would be a waste of time. But I was listening to the Nov 28th (2nd show) aud recording a few days ago, and "Midnight Rambler" is just like the official version...save for the vocals. "Love In Vain" comes from Baltimore...and I haven't noticed any differences with the GYYYO version; but I'm not an authority on this. I trust Chris M's site and other references for this, though.

What would you compare SFTD to?  Isn't it from the 1st show that day, for which there is no boot?  If the comparison is to the acetate, how can we be certain the acetate does not reflect edits?

smokeydusky wrote on Apr 15^th, 2008 at 7:33pm:

What would you compare SFTD to?  Isn't it from the 1st show that day, for which there is no boot?  If the comparison is to the acetate, how can we be certain the acetate does not reflect edits?

Yes, it's tricky with that one. I guess there's no way of being absolute certain. But - it would seem strange to have a single track with guitar overdubs, while all the others were left untouched.

stonedinaustralia wrote on Apr 15^th, 2008 at 6:04pm:

Nasty Habits wrote on Apr 15th, 2008 at 7:15am: . Hey SIA - what's up brother?   i'm good man - lots of weeding as usual and you? still waiting for "the future is unwritten" to hit the stores and SAL is not here til late May - You seen it yet??

Actually I'm in a "get it when you can but don't bring it home in bulk" phase . . .

I have not seen SAL yet - it still hasn't come to A-ville and if I didn't travel to see them on the last tour I'm def not traveling to see a movie.  But it's driving me a little nuts that I haven't seen it.

re: the edits/overdubs/doubletracks/etc
to my ears, ya-ya's has all three; the acetate does not (but i cant put my fingers on the sources, so i am posting from memory  ::) ) i know this - i ripped the sacd of yayas, and seamlessly cut the acetate solos in - pitch and speed exact (without much/any effort on my part). it seems to me that they just axed the extra solos and the "just as" verse in one cut - and that cut is what is on the acetate album.

re: satisfaction
i agree with you - that satisfaction from msg (feat. in gimme shelter film) is the best of the tour. awesome. that is why i included it on my "ultimate yaya's" that i made up (for personal use only). speaking of stuff from the criterion disc - i think that sfm that gets cut with the scene mel belli's office is the best of the tour, too. it is a shame it is not provided complet (like they did with the rockers dvd - that one has stuff NOT even on the soundtrack, iirc). another gs criterion heartbreaker - why did they have to include the acoustic stuff that was all out of tune? that didnt happen every night. for instance, there is a spectacular acoustic set from (again, from memory) one of the forum gigs that they could've used instead. i used the bootsource, even though the criterion source sounds better - it is out of tune, and the performance isnt that hot. i also would have loved a clean source of that rough/original mix of bs they were groovin to at the holiday inn...

re: i'm free
again, i cant put my finger on them right now, but there is another one that is not the medley, but is a scorching mt solo (forum maybe), and i couldve sworn there was at least one more appearance of the thumb/im free.

oh yeah...

nasty wrote:

Nasty Habits wrote on Apr 14^th, 2008 at 10:39am:

The Detroit Sympathy, as presented on the 1969 Soundboard Collection, also features the duelling solos almost directly back to back, although there is an eight bar "get on down" chorus between the solos.

we need to talk - i dont have that one (yet)

oh (ot, but anyway) - do you upload each of yer shows, or just select ones..? i dig reading the playlists, and would love to check 'em if they are archived someplace (like an rss feed)...

macdaddy wrote on Apr 16^th, 2008 at 7:24pm:

speaking of stuff from the criterion disc - i think that sfm that gets cut with the scene mel belli's office is the best of the tour, too. it is a shame it is not provided complete (like they did with the rockers dvd - that one has stuff NOT even on the soundtrack, iirc).

Absolutely agreed - the way that the rhythm guitar sounds at the end of that song is brain electrifying and ridiculously great - I would love to have that super clean as well.


macdaddy wrote on Apr 16^th, 2008 at 7:24pm:

another gs criterion heartbreaker - why did they have to include the acoustic stuff that was all out of tune? that didnt happen every night. for instance, there is a spectacular acoustic set from (again, from memory) one of the forum gigs that they could've used instead. i used the bootsource, even though the criterion source sounds better - it is out of tune, and the performance isnt that hot. i also would have loved a clean source of that rough/original mix of bs they were groovin to at the holiday inn...

See if you can remember exactly which acoustic set you're talking about - I would love to make sure that I have all the really good ones.  Same w/that I'm Free you mentioned.  Scorching Mick Taylor solos from '69 are my favorite scorching Mick Taylor solos.

Re: MSG Acoustic set - I am guessing that it's the only visual footage they have that they could find - if I remember right a lot of that stuff is lost, right?  But, yeah, Keith just gives up in the middle of Prodigal Son, shocking Mick.  It's a pretty crappy example of one of the coolest moments of any Stones tour ever that does need to be docu'd in an official release somewhere.  I have kind of decided that Ya-Ya's needs to be left alone and they just need to do a big fat '69 tour retrospective that is separate.  

Re:  The rough original Brown Sugar - Yeah that is fucking great - In the late 80s I taped all the musical portions of Gimme Shelter from a shitty VHS and listened to it constantly, edits/clips and all.  Did the Goddard movie on the other side.  Called it the Midnight Matinee or something.  That was one hell of a C90.


macdaddy wrote on Apr 16^th, 2008 at 7:24pm:

oh yeah... nasty wrote: Nasty Habits wrote on Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:39am: The Detroit Sympathy, as presented on the 1969 Soundboard Collection, also features the duelling solos almost directly back to back, although there is an eight bar "get on down" chorus between the solos. we need to talk - i dont have that one (yet) oh (ot, but anyway) - do you upload each of yer shows, or just select ones..? i dig reading the playlists, and would love to check 'em if they are archived someplace (like an rss feed)...

I warn you, my '69 Soundboard collection is ssx'd and lossy as a sieve, and, FUCK, now that I look at it, incomplete - I had a brutal hard drive crash about a month ago that has left me reeling in terms of my "main" collection of digital files - so all I have are my fave performances from it on my Itunes.  It is somewhat possible that the hard drive will get repaired but not the geek what's got it is otherwise occu'd at the moment.  

As far as my show goes - I have been a little bit too busy to properly post-produce and archive them on my myspace page, but they can always be streamed for one week at

http://wpvm.org/nav/archives/

Someday I am gonna get it together and start uploading full archival versions to my blog.

Yeah, right. ::)

Oh, and since someone else brought up my radio show, I would be derelict in my duty to my station if I did not mention that this week is our Spring Fund drive, and that anyone so inclined can make a secure donation to our independent radio cause at http://www.wpvm.org

There is a comment box in the donation screen, and anyone mentioning the Replacement Party in said box would receive a CD I just put together of a bunch of great rock, r&b, country/rockabilly, soul 45's that I've dug up around Asheville over the last year or so - it came out pretty great.  

Feel free to ignore the above, but I have to pitch the fund drive tonight, so am working myself into shameless beggary mode. . .

Keep it real, Mac-O.

Ok, Here is what I have found out. Most of the info is from the Apple record first rework, that was done at  London Olympic Sound Studios , feb. 1970.
Keep in mind that it was more re-work after that, for instance SFTD  (verse four removed and more vocal studio overdubs) :'(

I have both VGP-160 and the MIckboys remaster and I have been listen to this 1.000 times and will do it 1.000 more.
This is the best official live album that the Stones has release. :charliesgoodtonite

1.  Jumping Jack Flash (MJ/KR) -New York City, 27.11.69
    Vocals & Guitars reworked.

2. Carol (Chuck Berry) -New York City, 28.11.69, 1st show
   Vocals reworked in the studio.

3. Stray Cat Blues (MJ/KR) -New York City, 28.11.69, 1st show
    Vocals reworked in the studio.

4. Love In Vain (Robert Johnson) -Baltimore, 26.11.69
  Original recording, no overdubs. (Can be compared with the track from "Deveil's deciple" bootleg.

5. Midnight Rambler (MJ/KR) -New York City, 28.11.69, 2nd show
   Original recording, no overdubs.  

6. Sympathy For The Devil (MJ/KR) -New York City, 28.11.69, 1st show
   Vocals reworked in the studio.

7.  Live With Me (MJ/KR) -New York City, 28.11.69, 2nd show
   Vocals reworked in the studio.

8. Little Queenie (Chuck Berry) -New York City, 28.11.69, 1st show
   Vocals reworked in the studio.

9.  Honky Tonk Woman (MJ/KR) -New York City, 27.11.69
    Vocals reworked in the studio.

10. Street Fighting Man (MJ/KR) -New York City, 28.11.69, 1st show
   Vocals reworked in the studio.

Why is there no boot from the early show on Nov. 28?

axl79 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2008 at 3:17pm:

I have both VGP-160 and the MIckboys remaster and I have been listen to this 1.000 times and will do it 1.000 more. This is the best official live album that the Stones has release. :charliesgoodtonite

Thanks.  Very interesting.  And, yeah.  Me too.  1,000?  Try ten.  It's pretty much the best LP anyone has or will ever put out.  Every note, no matter where it was laid down, is godhead.

YaYa's still always amazes me!

A important part of making it so unique is Charlie's drumming!

His intros/beginning to JJF and SFTD are outstanding and you don't hear them in that way on any other 69 date boot. The other drumming is good as well.

Keith and Mick Taylor had just found themselves on that tour and Jagger still had that urge, sex and danger in his voice.

There were other good live albums like Who's Leeds andPerformance from H. Pie.
But YaYa's  is unparalleled!