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GENERAL >> MAIN BOARD >> How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. http://rocksoff.org/cgi-bin/messageboard/YaBB.pl?num=1618554178 Message started by Rev 20 Redlights on Apr 16th, 2021 at 1:22am |
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Title: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Rev 20 Redlights on Apr 16th, 2021 at 1:22am (i've always wondered how the Pasche tongue got changed into the immortal Classic stones tongue. I figured some anonymous designer must have done it at Mick's direction. Turns out the designer wasn't at all anonymous, and Mick had nothing to do with it) (excerpted from https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2021/04/the-man-who-made-the-most-notorious-album-art-of-1971) This month marks the 50-year anniversary of the release of Sticky Fingers. The album cover was a collaboration between Andy Warhol and Craig Braun, who was known as a designer of sophisticated cover packages, starting with the Velvet Underground LP adorned with Warhol’s famous banana sticker. (this interview with Braun was conducted by Joe Hagan. The full interview at the link has LOTS more info about the design of the whole Sticky Fingers album package, and other famous albums) I said to Marshall Chess, “Look, you mentioned that some kid in an art school is working on a logo for Mick?” And he said, “Yeah.” So I said, “I need that, Marshall. Get the logo.” He says, “I can’t get involved with that, man. You want me to come between Mick and this kid?” [The “kid” was John Pasche, the designer officially credited with the Rolling Stones lips-and-tongue logo; he reportedly sold his copyright to the Stones for 26,000 British pounds in 1984.] I said, “I need the artwork. I got to have it.” I was screaming at him. I said, “Marshall, have you seen a sketch or anything?” He said, “Well, you know, the guy is just doing black-and-white artwork. It’s not finished. But I did get a stamp.” So he sends this thing and it’s the overall shape of [the Stones logo], the lips, and then I can see this bulbous tongue, but it’s like a squashed-out image. So when I saw it, I said, “Marshall, this is not helping me at all.” But then I remembered getting a book in London from a guy named Alan Aldridge. He was an illustrator and he did a book called [The Beatles Illustrated Lyrics]. And I remember this one illustration for “Day Tripper,” and it was a girl, this cute little blond girl, and she was eating a lollipop or a popsicle. And she had her huge tongue out and the lip outline. That was like magic for me. I said, We can do it now. So I got my guy down, the illustrator guy, Walter Velez was his name. We combined the two in a salad, like a design salad. I didn’t show [the design] to anybody. I wanted it to be dramatic. I wanted it to be a surprise. So I called Marshall, I said, “When will you and Mick be in the same place? Because I’m going to send somebody with the original mechanical artwork [for the cover].” He says, “Tomorrow! He’s going to be here tomorrow at noon time.” So I said, “I’ll have my guy go to the airport tonight and bring this case of mechanicals for you guys to approve.” And I told this kid, Mark, I said, “If they say anything about the logo, say, ‘I don’t know, Craig just told me to bring this to you.’ You don’t know shit and don’t offer any opinions about anything. Don’t even say it’s great or it looks good. Let them respond to this. Let them look for what’s wrong with it. As soon as they say it’s okay, initial it, have them initial it, get on the fucking plane, and come back.” So I’m on pins and needles because I think Mick is going to say, “What’s this logo, this doesn’t look like the one that the guy showed me, the sketches and everything. This doesn’t look like it.” What I care about is whether Mick is upset and he tells Marshall, “Your friend is not going to produce the package, fuck him.” So all of a sudden I’m saying goodbye to a quarter of a million dollars. That’s what I would have made on it initially. I made more than that on it. So Mark calls me from the airport and says, “I’m coming back — it’s okay!” I was dancing around my office, man. We had an okay. They loved it! |
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Rev 20 Redlights on Apr 17th, 2021 at 7:00am
i think its great that finally not just pasche, but also braun, velez, and
aldridge are getting their fair share of the credit but the true original two designers need to be mentioned as well 1) the anonymous artist from india whose work was used by... 2) mick jagger to show pasche what he wanted And it wasn't just that it looked like his own mouth, Mick also knew... "with the outstretched tongue, Kali teases and mocks her devotees — she sees through their social facade and knows the dark desires they try so hard to deny or suppress." |
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Voodoo Chile in Wonderland on Apr 17th, 2021 at 1:53pm
The order is
Ruby Mazur (October 1969) Not used at the time, Andy Warhol didn't like it, but used later when Ruby complained about, they used it later for the Exile on Main St. singles Ernie Cefalu (1970) John Pasche and Craig Braun (1971) the One Rev posted |
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Rev 20 Redlights on Apr 17th, 2021 at 6:45pm
Ruby Mazur's work was not a logo. And it is not remotely in the shape that became the logo.
Could it have gotten jagger thinking about a logo? Sure. But Jagger showing a Kali image around was what got the ball rolling. No one has a record of exactly which Kali image Jagger was using, but there are images with the goddess slightly turned to one side where her mouth and tongue have the exact asymmetrical shape of the logo. Mazur was never involved in the logo process. Cefalu was, but his varying accounts of the timeline have often been called into question. Cefalu himself states that it was Braun who gave him the idea of the lips-and-tongue logo. So if we're talking about whose idea the logo was, its clearly Jagger. As for the execution of the idea, its clear Marshall Chess got Braun involved first, which led to Cefalu. But there's nothing to suggest that Jagger or Pasche ever saw Braun/Cefalu's work before beginning their version. So, if we're talking the Classic tongue logo, its evolution is Jagger to Pasche to Braun/Velez. |
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Voodoo Chile in Wonderland on Apr 17th, 2021 at 8:18pm
Well, not a logo, right, but was the first rolling stones’ tongue, period.
He and Mick conceived it, long before the others participated, it was during the sessions of Let it Bleed, the ones at Los Angeles with Nicky Hopkins and Leon Russell on Live with me, October, 1969; Mick asked Ruby Mazur for something so irreverent that it would make our own Joey blush, so he proposed the one I showed and this one. Neither Andy nor Mick liked it to use, so it was until the making of the cover for Sticky Fingers that they worked the same concept by Ruby with the above mentioned artists |
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Voodoo Chile in Wonderland on Apr 17th, 2021 at 8:21pm
https://youtu.be/wbNDLb-1yhw
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Rev 20 Redlights on Apr 18th, 2021 at 1:18am
financial footnote:
in 2014 when Mazur was again contemplating legal action over the logo, his lawyer estimated cumulative earnings from the Tongue at over $100 million. and the last 7 years has seen perhaps the heaviest ever merchandising of the symbol, increasing that total substantially in fact, given the shrinkage in Stones radio play and music sales, and the low payout from streaming, its probable that the Tongue earns more for Musidor-bv currently than the entire Stones music catalog. the question is, how are the Tongue royalties distributed amongst the Stones? We can't know for sure, because such documents are internal to Musidor. So I'll guess that only Mick and Keith get the payments, that they somehow wangled it to be covered by the same terms as their publishing, and not by the terms covering their recordings, in which the others share. Just a guess. Anybody know the facts? |
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Rev 20 Redlights on Apr 23rd, 2021 at 7:54am
Aldridge deserves some credit, but suddenly he's getting too much, so
i'll attempt again to put his contribution in perspective 1) Aldridge routinely used Hindu art as source material. Here's two of many examples: 2) Given his familiarity with Hindu art, and the fact that the mouth on the popsicle-girl has a "pasted-on", out-of-proportion look, I regard it as a borrowed the image from Kali. The extended corners of the mouth on the Aldridge image further supports this conclusion. 3) So here's the flow chart for the development of the classic Stones tongue logo: 4) In summary: Aldridge and Cefalu had NO influence on the invention of the logo by Jagger and Pasche. But Aldridge and Cefalu did influence Braun/Velez when they, without authorization from Jagger, modified the Pasche image into the Classic Tongue for the Sticky Fingers album sleeve. |
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by moy on Apr 23rd, 2021 at 9:49am
GREAT!!
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Rev 20 Redlights on Apr 24th, 2021 at 5:34am Rev 20 Redlights wrote on Apr 17th, 2021 at 6:45pm:
The specific story is that Jagger had a Hindu calendar, which were readily available at the time in both ethnic and hippie stores. Here's a typical calendar image from that time period (you can see why Aldridge immediately thought of a pretty girl and a popsicle): |
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Rev 20 Redlights on Apr 25th, 2021 at 10:47am
I have never seen this quote before. It comes from the "time is on our side" site,
without any source. Assuming the quote is accurate, Mick just flat-out states that the logo was completely his own idea. I've essentially always taken that position, but based on circumstantial evidence, not testimony. In interviews, Pasche claims much more of the idea for himself, but I've never believed him because Pasche says ridiculous things like "mick wanted all of kali, not just the mouth" and "mick had no idea that his own mouth was an inspiration too". Mick Jagger discusses the logo (2015) That was designed by John Pasche. It became very identifiable with us. I don't think bands really had logos before then. (It was based on me a) bit. I got the idea from this corner shop. It was run by an Indian guy and he had a calendar with the goddess Kali on it. Kali has a disembodied tongue and I thought it was a very striking image. I said to John, "can you do a modernised version of the disembodied tongue?", and that's what he did. |
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Rev 20 Redlights on Apr 26th, 2021 at 4:32am Also from 2015, Jagger told a slightly different version of the story to the New Musical Express, in which the calendar belongs to him, not the shop owner. Which makes more sense if he was showing it around. This also means there's a chance he still has it squirreled away somewhere... “I was looking for a logo when we started Rolling Stones Records. I had this calendar on my wall, it was an Indian calendar, which you’ll see in Indian grocery stores, and it’s the goddess Kali, and she has this tongue that sticks out. So I took that to John Pasche and he modernised it somewhat.” |
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Brainbell Jangler on May 5th, 2021 at 5:38pm
Jai Kali Ma Jai! Ma Kali Jai!
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Rev 20 Redlights on May 5th, 2021 at 9:17pm Brainbell Jangler wrote on May 5th, 2021 at 5:38pm:
lots of good Jai Maa Kali songs, and i was gonna post a traditional one, but this one caught my eye/ear instead "mother of punk" Nina Hagen has been doing her bowie-ish thing for 45 years now, but in private she's quite serious about her devotion to kali https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJa4r-OydDM |
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by sweetcharmedlife on May 15th, 2021 at 11:28pm
Ernie's tongue is the best! :D :paristhong
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Title: Re: How the Pasche tongue got changed into the Classic tongue. The missing link. Post by Rev 20 Redlights on Aug 19th, 2021 at 6:51pm
Another footnote:
To highlight just how common Kali imagery was within hip/hippie 60s culture, we need only turn to the Beatles... 1) 1967: Kali's sister goddess Lakshmi was front and center on Sgt Peppers 2) 1965: Kali herself appeared in, and was referenced in the original title for, the movie "Help" -- "Eight Arms To Hold You" |
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