I keep hearing from a few friends of mine The Stones are going to continue to tour on behalf of their 50th Anniversary into next year or next year some time.


The simple answer to that is a simple: No they aren't. If they do shows next year it will not be to celebrate their 50th anniversary nor will it have the same marketing campaign. I can only say this so many times...  


The flippin concerts for that are THIS YEAR! The celebrations for their 50th are very recently and RIGHT FLIPPIN NOW... (you know...book, documentary, greatest hits, special set of shows .. .. pay per view) .....not in 2013. How hard is this concept?

I can only say it so many times... how on earth are they going to promote concerts next year based on the 50th Anniversary thing...? Everyone will be like... "well yeah...its great they are going to do shows...but wasn't their official celebrations for the 50th LAST YEAR...??).

This is not a two year juncture everyone. Those days are gone for The Stones... anyone who is not seeing this is blind. IF they do shows next year it will be based on a different concept all together. The marketing machine has been created and targeted for their 50th THIS YEAR. ...not next.

Think about how silly will it sound for The Stones and their organization to be touting anniversary shows again some time next year??


If they do decide to do shows next year it won't be part of this "50 and counting" thing. This is not 40 Licks ... The Stones are not 60 anymore and there is no two year jaunt. Their approach and marketing strategy is more confined and direct now. 2012 is their Anniversary and they are celebrating it right friggin now... NOT again in 2013.
It only makes sense and the notion of shows in 2013 based on this is silly from a marketing standpoint and from a logical standpoint ...


What part of this isn't everybody getting ..? geez -


Ian

Something tells me you may not understand the "and counting" part of "50 and counting."

1963 is their 50th anniversary for those outside England, in 1962 they only played local (London) gigs, in 1963 they released two singles and appeared in the LP "Thank You Lucky Stars Volume Two" (Decca LK 4554) it was until 1964 that they released albums and they were famous all over the planet...

So...

Let's tour 2013 and 2014 you bastards!

51st anniversary tour!!!

For what it's worth I have a friend that has some rather strong relations inside the world of Ticketmaster. He says that any talk of a 2013 Stones' tour is bogus. He said, "Steve it ain't gonna happen. Period." I said that I had heard that there was talk of something in 2013 and he made it very clear again. "It's not gonna happen" When I pressed him on how he knew he just said that there is some talk of a possible 2013 show or two on the west coast, but even that is doubtful. I remain positive that something might happen, but I'm not ruling out the possibility that I may have seen the Stones for the last time other than the pay-per-view show on the 15th.


Riffy

Everything I've been told suggests quite the opposite.

Plenty of shows in 2013.

ijwthstd wrote on Dec 6^th, 2012 at 4:04pm:

Something tells me you may not understand the "and counting" part of "50 and counting."

Precisely.  ::)

Riffhard wrote on Dec 6^th, 2012 at 5:01pm:

For what it's worth I have a friend that has some rather strong relations inside the world of Ticketmaster. He says that any talk of a 2013 Stones' tour is bogus. He said, "Steve it ain't gonna happen. Period." I said that I had heard that there was talk of something in 2013 and he made it very clear again. "It's not gonna happen" When I pressed him on how he knew he just said that there is some talk of a possible 2013 show or two on the west coast, but even that is doubtful. I remain positive that something might happen, but I'm not ruling out the possibility that I may have seen the Stones for the last time other than the pay-per-view show on the 15th. Riffy

Riffy, that's what I think also. Dec 15th is the final Stones concert. It is over...

Gazza wrote on Dec 6^th, 2012 at 5:15pm:

Everything I've been told suggests quite the opposite. Plenty of shows in 2013.

Yeah, that's what I had heard as well from some record reps. They were always careful to couch these reports with comments like possible, rumored, etc.


Riffy

It seems clear to me that this years shows were a testing of the waters: economically (oh that Mick's a clever bugger) as well as to see if the audience was still there (and would pay huge sums).
They started in late 2012 to tie in with the whole "50 Years" theme, but also to prime their audience (not to mention hawking 'Grrrr' for the Christmas shopping market).
Surely they wouldn't go through all this effort for just five gigs. Especially considering how well they all seem to be (and how well they're playing), and the great receptiveness of the public (barring sluggish ticket sales, which is understandable given how obscenely expensive they are).
No. There's way too much money to be made from this. I predict more shows, probably quite a few, if not an outright proper tour (albeit with several days in between dates for rest). Also, another four disc DVD comp featuring the PPV from Newark. I also predict some on the road recording (if new stuff isn't already recorded that we don't know about, including re-worked old stuff)I'll bet there's some new studio stuff released early next year, even if just a couple more singles ( and aside from the Archival stuff).
Not over by a long shot.

" ... The Stones are not 60 anymore..."

I don't know why, but that strikes me as hilarious!

:loloncemore

Again: I am certainly ..."not"... saying they will not perform any shows in 2013. That is a real possibility..however what I am saying is they will not bill it as this "50 and Counting" stuff....and it will not be part of their Anniversary. No ape... nothing the same. IF they do perform it will be a different concept and will most likely not even have the same stage.

-Didn't you folks see they said on their facebook page their "final show" of their 50 and counting concerts is the PPV special....? Isn't that enough. Their special set of shows to celebrate their 50th is this year and then that's it as far as their 50th is concerned. There is going to be no extension into next year on that concept ..as I said from the beginning ... that would be really stupid and would make no sense from a marketing stand-point.


Look the "50 and counting" is more less referring to the years .... not a number of shows. ..and I don't think it's any play on words.


YES they may do some shows next year...  and I do not think these set of shows is their last. However if they do shows some time later next year it won't be part of their anniversary... who knows what it will concern but the whole 50th Anniversary concept will be over by years end.


Ian

These shows have/are setting the bar very high for next year - then again they have gone all out to market the '50 and counting' shows as the best, most magnificent and grandiose they have ever done, and ever will do. But that is not to say that these shows are their last. On the contrary, they have now established that a high demand exists for astronomically priced tickets.  If they do more shows next year the content will be toned down - ie no regular guests, choir etc., and the prices will be a bit cheaper, but I think they can feel safe in the knowledge that they can charge whatever they want.

Without professing to know or speculating any specifics, I daresay less grandiose, but more frequent/spread out shows will take place - with the chance that tickets will be cheaper, albeit still ridiculously expensive.

Well, Ian, then it's just down to semantics. A lot of people are saying that after these five shows, it's over. Which it probably isn't. So what difference does it make if they consider any further shows part of their "50th Anniversary" celebration? Gigs are gigs.

Ian Billen wrote on Dec 6^th, 2012 at 7:10pm:

Again: I am certainly ..."not"... saying they will not perform any shows in 2013. That is a real possibility..however what I am saying is they will not bill it as this "50 and Counting" stuff....and it will not be part of their Anniversary. No ape... nothing the same. IF they do perform it will be a different concept and will most likely not even have the same stage. -Didn't you folks see they said on their facebook page their "final show" of their 50 and counting concerts is the PPV special....? Isn't that enough. Their special set of shows to celebrate their 50th is this year and then that's it.   Look the "50 and counting" is more less referring to the years .... not a number of shows. ..and I don't think it's any play on words. YES they may do some shows next year... however it won't be part of their anniversary... who knows what it will concern but the whole 50th Anniversary concept will be over by years end. Ian

I think it would make good sense if they started a new marketing campaign for next year's shows. They've gone to extreme lengths to imprint upon their audiences the notion that these five '50 and counting' shows are a cream of the crop of Rolling Stones shows, a true celebration of their 50 years as a band. This atmosphere and spirit surrounding the shows leads to a subconscious inclination that perhaps this is the Stones going out with a bang. Which, in my opinion, was an ingenius marketing technique to drive speculation that these shows would be their last and to thereby increase demand to match the massive cost of tickets. Conversely, if they had billed these shows as anything else (/ 'normal'), demand perhaps would not have existed. But this i speculative and was simply never going to happen - not this year.

So I agree with you. The '50 and counting' 'celebratory' campaign was rightly directed at these shows only, and for a good reason (from Rolling Stones incorporated's perspective).

Whatever they bill next year's shows as, I'm sure it will be special, but not as special.

Very good analyisis, Patrick. I agree (but of course, who really knows except the Stones).

Okay, so they call it something other than 50 and Counting. What's the difference.
As for rumors of no more shows, last I looked there were about 2,200 and 1,800 tickets available in Stub Hub alone formthe 2 Jersey shows.  Is Someone doing the scalpers a favor so they bite again next year?

Ian...were you one of those people who stayed home on Dec 31, 1999 because the millennium actually started Jan 1 2001???
;D ;D ;D

I am kidding, of course...but you did, didn't you?!?

Anyway...isn't EVERY year an anniversary??

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T0DnfCflL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


For my baby Ian.

FPM wrote on Dec 6^th, 2012 at 6:19pm:

" ... The Stones are not 60 anymore..." I don't know why, but that strikes me as hilarious! :loloncemore

______________________________________


hehehehe ... I see your point.  What I actually meant was at 60 ... even in their case 63-65 they managed to pull it off (However ABB was ..."just" making it without it seeming like they are failing at long treks).


And now they are 70! Aint gonna happen as it did for Licks... or even ABB bc dudes are 70. Huge age and physical diff between 60 and 70...not so much between 50-60... is what I actually meant hehe.


Ian

Paranoid Android wrote on Dec 6^th, 2012 at 9:18pm:

Ian...were you one of those people who stayed home on Dec 31, 1999 because the millennium actually started Jan 1 2001??? ;D ;D ;D I am kidding, of course...but you did, didn't you?!? Anyway...isn't EVERY year an anniversary??

________________________________________________


What I am saying is the same thing as Mr. Yeats for the most part. I believe The Stones will do shows next year most likely but that they will not be the same as this special set of shows. It won't be touted as the 50th anniversary thing continued.... there will be no ape... and I expect they will record and change things up. What I am saying is shows in 2013 will be under a different premise all together. Mick Taylor wont be there... Neither will Wyman .... there will be a different stage.... and the whole Grrr thing will be left to 2012... and maybe they will record on the road and release an album by next fall.


The Anniversary celebrations are over after this year is what I'm saying. People are not going to be saying they are "going to see the Stones on their 50th Anniversary tour"...they will simply be saying "I am going to see The Rolling Stones"... There will be a different stage and set-list and I don't expect any sort of major tour. Just sets of 3 or 5 shows sporadically here and again... with possibly some recording in between.

Their website and their publicity machine won't label the t-shirts, merchandise or anything down the road in 2013 as connected or part of their continuing 50th Anniversary shows ...because that jaunt will be over. Mick will thank everyone in Newark and that show will be the last of the 50th celebrations and all the special facets it included... As well, it would seem really silly to label something a even a few months into 2013 or later into next year some time as also their 50th celebration .. .. .. Everyone will be like "Woe...how long you gonna Milk that?... You guys ended that in Newark and your 50th was officially celebrated LAST year." Any shows in in 2013 will be with a different name or premise, or concept if they decide to perform is what I'm saying.


Ian

Gazza wrote on Dec 6^th, 2012 at 5:15pm:

Everything I've been told suggests quite the opposite. Plenty of shows in 2013.

____________________________________________



"Plenty" ... we shall see... who knows.. but in my opinion they will be in 2-3- and 4 show spurts... not consecutive. As well the 50th Anniversary premise will be laid to rest with all the headlining and merchandise changed and it'll be a different stage and a different concept all together.  There were a slew of special things and 5 special shows (6 if your counting that small Paris warm up) to celebrate their 50th with a special PPV concert finalizing it. Their 50th Anniversary thing is ending December 15th. Next year will not be a continuing of the 50 and Counting stuff is my point if they decide to perform at some time down the road in 2013.


Ian

Frankly I am not holding my breath, but it wouldn't surprise me if the boys pay their strongholds one last visit. If they keep their health, we'll see them in several cities in the US, the UK, mainland Europe - Netherlands, Germany, France, Spain - it'll be shorter than usual, there'll be longer breaks between shows.

On the other hand, if they'll tell us that this set of 5 is their 'Last Waltz', I would totally understand.

Fuck you, Ian.......WILL 'YA ?  :loloncemore

They wont do all this shit just for 5 shows. 2013 will be the swansong, but the swan WILL sing!

corgi37 wrote on Dec 7^th, 2012 at 5:37am:

They wont do all this shit just for 5 shows. 2013 will be the swansong, but the swan WILL sing!

I agree with corgi!!!
That said, the final bow on the 15th is going to tug at the heartstrings and pull HARD.  :'(

Ian Billen wrote on Dec 7^th, 2012 at 1:43am:

Gazza wrote on Dec 6th, 2012 at 5:15pm: Everything I've been told suggests quite the opposite. Plenty of shows in 2013. ____________________________________________ "Plenty" ... we shall see... who knows.. but in my opinion they will be in 2-3- and 4 show spurts... not consecutive. As well the 50th Anniversary premise will be laid to rest with all the headlining and merchandise changed and it'll be a different stage and a different concept all together.  There were a slew of special things and 5 special shows (6 if your counting that small Paris warm up) to celebrate their 50th with a special PPV concert finalizing it. Their 50th Anniversary thing is ending December 15th. Next year will not be a continuing of the 50 and Counting stuff is my point if they decide to perform at some time down the road in 2013. Ian

Its totally bloody irrelevant whether its called '50th anniversary' or not. Its just a name. All this bollocks about a tour concept, anniversaries and merchandise is meaningless.

It'll still be the Rolling Stones playing sets of mostly very old songs that they've played many times before and charging people a lot of money to witness it.

Same formula that they've been doing since 2002.

However, you can expect a much smaller number of cities and shows.

LadyJane wrote on Dec 7^th, 2012 at 5:42am:

corgi37 wrote on Dec 7th, 2012 at 5:37am: They wont do all this shit just for 5 shows. 2013 will be the swansong, but the swan WILL sing! I agree with corgi!!! That said, the final bow on the 15th is going to tug at the heartstrings and pull HARD.  :'(

Not sure why that is if having missed out on seeing them in 2012 you're accepting that you've a better chance of doing so in 2013.

I met a guy ( in London) last week.. who is one of the bands business managers  ( rather not say which one)... ANYHOW..  i said "  I think the Newark shows will be their last".  He was adamant that was not the case " Unless Keith is sick".     He was realy bullish.   Iv changed my mind now.

Gazza wrote on Dec 7^th, 2012 at 6:35am:

LadyJane wrote on Dec 7th, 2012 at 5:42am: corgi37 wrote on Dec 7th, 2012 at 5:37am: They wont do all this shit just for 5 shows. 2013 will be the swansong, but the swan WILL sing! I agree with corgi!!! That said, the final bow on the 15th is going to tug at the heartstrings and pull HARD.  :'( Not sure why that is if having missed out on seeing them in 2012 you're accepting that you've a better chance of doing so in 2013.

Because the final bow always gets to me and until 2013 shows are announced.............we really can't be certain. Don't expect me to rational Gazza. Why should I start now????!!!!!  :willya

The band continues until they do not. I've said that for years and years.

BB King still tours and he's 87. Dave Brubeck toured until he was 90. The Stones love what it is they do, and nobody has ever done it better. They still create new material (okay, two songs this year) and they are far from the nostalgia trip most bystanders think they are on.

Also, I haven't noticed too much complaining about the setlists so far. Two shows and most of it songs they've done too many times to count.

Unease, anxiety, tension, stress, worry — all forms of fear — are cause by too much future, and not enough presence. Guilt, regret, resentment, grievances, sadness, bitterness, and all forms of nonforgiveness are caused by too much past, and not enough presence.

I simply cant believe what I'd read in this thread. Why should they stopped?
I agree with Corgi and Lady Jane.
Wait and will see what they will gonna to do by now, soon, just few months since now.
But no new songs? Album? Gazza may says that they dont need ea new one.
I think is possible for them to keep on.
Keith surely will

The question is not whether there will be a tour

The question is; how many kidney's do I really need,  and what are they going for nowadays?

remember when they said no shows in 2012, and i said it was a ruse, that they would surprise us? Well i did, and they will be full of surprises... don't beleive anything or anyone that says they aren't doing stuff, because they are doing a lot... I bet they do SNL soon too!!!

Some Guy wrote on Dec 7^th, 2012 at 7:03am:

Unease, anxiety, tension, stress, worry — all forms of fear — are cause by too much future, and not enough presence. Guilt, regret, resentment, grievances, sadness, bitterness, and all forms of nonforgiveness are caused by too much past, and not enough presence.

some yoda?

It aint over ... till one of the core gets sick ... that puts the odds on next year at 50/50 at best ...face it folks ... these dudes are past be old ... best line ... "it's not like they are 60"  :stinkypost

Gazza wrote on Dec 7^th, 2012 at 6:33am:

Ian Billen wrote on Dec 7th, 2012 at 1:43am: Gazza wrote on Dec 6th, 2012 at 5:15pm: Everything I've been told suggests quite the opposite. Plenty of shows in 2013. ____________________________________________ "Plenty" ... we shall see... who knows.. but in my opinion they will be in 2-3- and 4 show spurts... not consecutive. As well the 50th Anniversary premise will be laid to rest with all the headlining and merchandise changed and it'll be a different stage and a different concept all together.  There were a slew of special things and 5 special shows (6 if your counting that small Paris warm up) to celebrate their 50th with a special PPV concert finalizing it. Their 50th Anniversary thing is ending December 15th. Next year will not be a continuing of the 50 and Counting stuff is my point if they decide to perform at some time down the road in 2013. Ian Its totally bloody irrelevant whether its called '50th anniversary' or not. Its just a name. All this bollocks about a tour concept, anniversaries and merchandise is meaningless. It'll still be the Rolling Stones playing sets of mostly very old songs that they've played many times before and charging people a lot of money to witness it. Same formula that they've been doing since 2002. However, you can expect a much smaller number of cities and shows.

____________________________________________




I know... but what I am saying is I don't think they will be touring or doing shows based on nothing. I think they will be touring to promote something eles or working on something eles. I don't think it will simply be The Stones doing shows/touring... I think they will have another project in the works .. not simply or only being The Stones in concert is what I'm saying....


Ian

Ian, I don't think "touring based on nothing" will be accurate. They've got the whole 50th thing going ("and counting"), plus the "Grrr!" comp, a new single that's recieved very favorable reviews and airplay, the "Crossfire Hurricane" doc, "Charlie Is My Darling", the book this last year, etc.

I'll put money on them releasing at least one new single before June 2013 (maybe just for download), never mind the obvious DVD comp.
As long as they can take their time (and space out the shows) and rake in the money, I think 2013 could be a HUGE Stones year (and who knows - maybe a full album of new-ish stuff).
Maybe we're in agreement here...

Mr. Yeats wrote on Dec 7^th, 2012 at 11:12pm:

Ian, I don't think "touring based on nothing" will be accurate. They've got the whole 50th thing going ("and counting"), plus the "Grrr!" comp, a new single that's recieved very favorable reviews and airplay, the "Crossfire Hurricane" doc, "Charlie Is My Darling", the book this last year, etc. I'll put money on them releasing at least one new single before June 2013 (maybe just for download), never mind the obvious DVD comp. As long as they can take their time (and space out the shows) and rake in the money, I think 2013 could be a HUGE Stones year (and who knows - maybe a full album of new-ish stuff). Maybe we're in agreement here...

______________________________________


Thanks for your input Mr. Yeats and I like the fact that we are on the same page. You asked are we in agreement here: Yes... I think they will certainly do another album. Yes... I think next year they will start working on it... who knows...maybe even release it by late next fall. However no... I don't think they will release another single by June ...and no I think the momentum for these celebrations will grind to a halt for a little while after this years end. I think they will pick things up in a live sense later on in the year....however not in simply 1 or 2 months into the year.

This is it for their 50th THIS year...they are going to leave that idea behind and lay it to rest after this year ... THEN it will be onto something eles... who knows...maybe recording an album on the road and going back to do shows again next spring or late summer.  Whatever it entails it will not be simply The Rolling Stones doing shows with no new product surrounding it.


Ian

The bigger issue surely is whether they are going to get it together to trade gorilla panties before Christmas? Yes it's all very well beautifully perfecting and updating their tunes, and contributing to hurricane relief, but what about the shortage of lingerie-vending in the lobby? Split Grrrotch Panties please.

Directly after the 2nd O2 show the following tune was played over the tann-oy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT4iJ2jZv7M


I imagine that NJ/NY is in for a treat & three-quarters.

Semantics? A 2 page thread on semantics? :will-ya

" Unease, anxiety, tension, stress, worry — all forms of fear — are cause by too much future, and not enough presence. Guilt, regret, resentment, grievances, sadness, bitterness, and all forms of nonforgiveness are caused by too much past, and not enough presence "


http://i.imgur.com/nQ50U.gif

And "TheRollingStones" Sound GRR8

sweetcharmedlife wrote on Dec 8^th, 2012 at 5:10pm:

Semantics? A 2 page thread on semantics? :will-ya

______________________________________




Ya... well the ever controversial (yet constant :D) Ian Billen created the thread don't forget..


My threads either take off like a shot or go absolutely nowhere. My posts on other peoples threads either create a huge conversation/debate, turn them in a completely new direction, or completely kill them...


Why do you think our beloved Gazza and Voodoo contemplate either removing me, or promoting me in this joint.... hehe.



.... Ian

Ian Billen wrote on Dec 8^th, 2012 at 6:03pm:

sweetcharmedlife wrote on Dec 8th, 2012 at 5:10pm: Semantics? A 2 page thread on semantics? :will-ya ______________________________________ Ya... well the ever controversial (yet constant :D) Ian Billen created the thread don't forget.. My threads either take off like a shot or go absolutely nowhere. My posts on other peoples threads either create a huge conversation/debate, turn them in a completely new direction, or completely kill them... Why do you think our beloved Gazza and Voodoo contemplate either removing me, or promoting me in this joint.... hehe. .... Ian

Well you're an Unholy something Ian.............Just not sure what. :whydontcha

sweetcharmedlife wrote on Dec 8^th, 2012 at 6:57pm:

Ian Billen wrote on Dec 8th, 2012 at 6:03pm: sweetcharmedlife wrote on Dec 8th, 2012 at 5:10pm: Semantics? A 2 page thread on semantics? :will-ya ______________________________________ Ya... well the ever controversial (yet constant :D) Ian Billen created the thread don't forget.. My threads either take off like a shot or go absolutely nowhere. My posts on other peoples threads either create a huge conversation/debate, turn them in a completely new direction, or completely kill them... Why do you think our beloved Gazza and Voodoo contemplate either removing me, or promoting me in this joint.... hehe. .... Ian Well you're an Unholy something Ian.............Just not sure what. :whydontcha

______________________________________________________





Ya .. Sadly, prolly simply .."Unholy-Bullocks".. to many or at least on certain days to most ... damn:  :stinkypost




Ian

this thread is like a soup sandwich at times!!!

What a waste of space...just like that thread about Mick not being on the cover of Tattoo You...Ian has that failed Ronnie Wood "meet and greet" event from a couple of years as his (sole ?) redeeming "fait d'armes" and proof that he is a "real" person, for the rest...

Why on earth would they stop at this point, to go out on a bang? Yeah...possibly.

An interesting point raised in this thread is the marketing campaign to brand these five shows as "upscale"...I for one didn't feel it that way really, maybe because I was in the thick of the action on the 25th? Guests, sure, but overal I got the feeling they were keeping it simple and to the point.

gotdablouse wrote on Dec 9^th, 2012 at 4:25pm:

What a waste of space...just like that thread about Mick not being on the cover of Tattoo You...Ian has that failed Ronnie Wood "meet and greet" event from a couple of years as his (sole ?) redeeming "fait d'armes" and proof that he is a "real" person, for the rest... Why on earth would they stop at this point, to go out on a bang? Yeah...possibly. An interesting point raised in this thread is the marketing campaign to brand these five shows as "upscale"...I for one didn't feel it that way really, maybe because I was in the thick of the action on the 25th? Guests, sure, but overal I got the feeling they were keeping it simple and to the point.

A stripped down upscale? :Youmakeagrownmancrylikejoey

GotdaBlouse Wrote:

"What a waste of space...just like that thread about Mick not being on the cover of Tattoo You...Ian has that failed Ronnie Wood "meet and greet" event from a couple of years as his (sole ?) redeeming "fait d'armes" and proof that he is a "real" person, for the rest..."


__________________________________________




As Gazza was surprised (and who would also verify for us)... It was reported on Wikipedia Mick Jagger was not on the cover as many believed. Sure Wikipedia is not always so accurate but guess what... there are still many out there that are unsure or do not believe it (simply search it on Google for that verification). I do believe now after seeing the picture and I do think it's Mick. That it why I asked the question...you know.... to get to the bottom of it. It was just a simple question that's arisen many times here in The States. As far as The Ronnie Wood thing goes... so what... I gave it a shot and was it utterly disappointing. You live, and you learn. 

What interesting threads have you conjured up lately...? Sort of like one artist knocking another's painting when they themselves haven't lifted a brush in 20 years.


Ian