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Message started by glencar on Feb 13th, 2009 at 12:01pm

Title: Tragedy In BUF
Post by glencar on Feb 13th, 2009 at 12:01pm
My sympathies to the city of Buffalo & our posters from there. Very sad day.

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/577959.html

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by glencar on Feb 13th, 2009 at 12:02pm
Federal investigators arrived in Clarence Center today to examine the smoldering wreckage of a commercial plane that crashed into a home just after 10:15 p.m. Thursday, immolating the aircraft and home and killing 50 people.

The first task for the 14 investigators will be retrieving the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder from the wreckage of the plane, which plunged into a home on Long Street.

Victims' bodies will also begin to be recovered from the site, with the aid of a medical examiner, said Steve Chealander, a National Transportation Safety Board member who arrived in the area early today to inspect the scene.

The dead include 49 passengers who were on board the plane and one man who was inside the home when the aircraft hit. They include "many" Buffalo-area residents, officials said.

Conditions at the scene will complicate the recovery effort, officials said.

"It's still very hot," said Chealander. "It was a major fire and explosion. There's a lot of carnage there."

The Continental Connection flight, No. 3407, had been headed into Buffalo from Newark when it suddenly fell from the sky and dived into a single-family house.

Onlookers -- and authorities -- were amazed that more homes were not destroyed.

"It's in that yard, basically," said Chealander. "It was a very compact area."

Eyewitnesses said the plane sounded odd before it crashed and seemed to strike directly into the home on Long Street.

"It was a bad, bad impact. It was hot, and the explosion was massive," said Clarence resident Tony Tatro, who was driving nearby at the time of the crash. "I couldn't see anyone surviving it."

The sickly glow from the burning wreckage could be seen for miles.

Names of the passengers on the plane were not being released immediately by the airline.

Gov. David A. Paterson planned to travel to the crash site today to inspect the scene personally.

The 50 dead included four on-duty crew members on the Continental plane, one off-duty crew member, as well as 44 people traveling toward Buffalo on business and pleasure trips.

Among the crash victims was Beverly Eckert, the widow of Sean Rooney, who was killed in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Eckert was traveling to Buffalo for a family celebration of what would have been her husband's 58th birthday.

Family members and friends identified two people believed to be on the plane as Ellyce Kausner, a graduate of Clarence High School and Canisius College, and Maddy Loftus, a Buffalo State College graduate who lives in New Jersey.

The crew members were identified as Capt. Marvin Renslow, pilot of the plane; Rebecca Shaw, first officer of the flight; and flight attendants Matilda Quintero and Donna Prisco.

Another employee of the airline, Capt. Joseph Zuffoletto, a Jamestown resident who was off-duty at the time, was also killed.

The fiery crash -- which stunned onlookers by its intensity and heat -- is the deadliest U.S. airline crash since November 2001, when American Airlines Flight 587 taking off from John F. Kennedy Airport.

Jaimeelynn Trujillo, a Clarence resident who lives directly behind the crash site and was evacuated by police in the moments after the crash, saw the immediate impact of the plane's hit first-hand and called it "horrifying."

She was also one of the few to see at least one of the occupants of the Long Street house -- the site where the plane crashed -- fleeing to safety.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by LadyJane on Feb 13th, 2009 at 12:12pm
Thanks for the thread Blue.

I cannot concentrate on anything today.

The crash occurred about 25 minutes from the City but it has effected all of us.

In Buffalo everyone knows everyone, so as this plays out, I may know a victim or two.

www.wben.com has an interview with the Woman,who with her daughter, escaped miraculously. Her Husband did not survive.

Very sad day.
LJ.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by glencar on Feb 13th, 2009 at 12:16pm
LJ, I thought of you when I heard the news very late last night. I happened to be driving by my local airport last night & a B737 flew directly overhead & I thought, "Wow, I'm glad I'm not flying today because it's unusually windy today." But it looks like it was ice that brought this flight down. Very, very sad. This is the worst aircraft disaster since Nov. 2001.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by LadyJane on Feb 13th, 2009 at 12:19pm
Had to be ice or wind shear.
My car doors were frozen shut this morning and we had winds yesterday gusting over 60 mph.

Thanks for the phone calls and emails, my dear friends! You know who you are! ;)

LJ.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by sweetcharmedlife on Feb 13th, 2009 at 12:49pm
Very sad to hear. My sympathies to the families and loved ones. Best wishes to hearty people in Buffalo. Unfortunately,no miracle this time.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by gimmekeef on Feb 13th, 2009 at 2:57pm
My deepest sympathies to those families affected..Buffalo has always been good to me and I have known many great folks there. Will be flying in to Buffalo in a few weeks myself...RIP to those poor souls

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by platter on Feb 13th, 2009 at 4:46pm
i can't believe 2 people actually escaped from the house the plane crashed into, what a joke that must have been.

bless the dead and for the families, but you sit in an airplane seat after take off anything can happen.  

:whydontcha

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by left shoe shuffle on Feb 13th, 2009 at 5:05pm

Reports are that two members of Chuck Mangione's band, guitarist Coleman Mellett and saxophonist Gerry Niewood, were on flight 3407.

Mellett lived in a neighboring town...

RIP to all who perished, and heartfelt condolences to their friends and families.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by sweetcharmedlife on Feb 13th, 2009 at 5:16pm
These things always happen in 3's right?

Flight crash-lands in London; 1 taken to hospital
   
LONDON – The nosewheel of a British Airways passenger jet collapsed with a loud bang as it landed Friday at London City Airport, sending the plane scraping across the tarmac with 71 people aboard, officials and witnesses said. All aboard escaped by emergency slides, but one person was taken to a hospital with a minor injury.

BA Flight 8456 was flying from Amsterdam to London when its front landing gear failed.

"As a precaution the emergency slides were deployed and passengers were evacuated down the slides onto the runway," the airline said in a statement. "One passenger suffered a minor injury."

The airline said the Avro 146 RJ100 — made by BAE Systems — was carrying 67 passengers and four crew.

London firefighters said the plane crashed onto the runway around 8 p.m. (2000 GMT, 3 p.m. EST), and ambulance officials reported that four people were treated for minor injuries.

One of the passengers, Justin Fletcher, told the British Broadcasting Corp. that "there was obviously quite a loud bang as the plane scratched in. The stewards and stewardesses were quick to evacuate everyone off. There was a few scrapes and cuts due to hitting the asphalt. All in all everyone seems to be doing quite well now."

Passengers and crew were taken into the airport straight after the accident to be treated, and to be given food and drink.

The airport's only runway was closed after the incident and planes were being diverted to other airports in southeast England.

The government sent three investigators to the scene. The plane remained on the runway Friday evening, surrounded by fire trucks and maintenance crews.

London City Airport, in the eastern part of the British capital, is mainly used for domestic and European flights. It handles around 80,000 flights a year, with just over 3 million passengers. The airport is surrounded by water and aviation experts say pilots often experience difficult landings on the runway.

The crash-landing in London came a day after a commuter plane nose-dived into a suburban house in upstate New York, killing all 49 people aboard and one person in the home

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by Some Guy on Feb 13th, 2009 at 5:52pm
Horrible, I too thought of LJ.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by lavendar on Feb 13th, 2009 at 6:22pm
Sometimes it makes me wonder.....  
So Sad,
Maybe human beings are taking to many things for granted!  
I guess i just feel bad,
We were without electric for 18 hours because of high winds and sleet.
I could have been worse.
Some people had no water.
Then a plane crashes with 49 dead,
Ice on the wings  :{
:'(

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by Sioux on Feb 13th, 2009 at 11:06pm
Very tragic...:( I know a lot of fine folks from Buffalo. All my prayers and sympathy goes out to the grieving families...:(

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by FotiniD on Feb 14th, 2009 at 2:35am
I've just heard about it. So sad for everyone involved, so many unlucky coincidences and such a tragedy...  :'(
Hope there wasn't anyone you knew in it LJ  :-/

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by Bitch on Feb 15th, 2009 at 1:56pm
It's a big tragedy, which makes it a big new story. All over the news are people's stories. 2 musicians, a 9-11 widow, college sports team members, a fiance off to meet her future inlaws, some people who missed the flight, eye witnesses, family members of the dead, etc. Only thing I can say is when the weather is bad, nobody should complain if the airlines cancel and delay flights. Sobering and sad.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by Sioux on Feb 15th, 2009 at 4:52pm
Now it appears as if some rules might have been "broken". The plane was on auto-pilot when it went down...:( Much harder to detect problems than if a human is actually flying the plane...


Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by Edith Grove on Feb 15th, 2009 at 5:01pm

Sioux wrote on Feb 15th, 2009 at 4:52pm:
Now it appears as if some rules might have been "broken". The plane was on auto-pilot when it went down..


I was under the impression that it was not far from landing.
I can't imagine a plane being on "auto pilot" on it's approach for landing.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by Sioux on Feb 15th, 2009 at 5:11pm
Yeah, I can't imagine either. Even if they weren't landing yet, they were in a totally populated area, and you know the plane was flying low.....what a tragic mistake. :(

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by platter on Feb 15th, 2009 at 6:17pm
it was freezing rain as the plane was approaching the airport and obviously very cold out that night...it sounds like ice build up on the wings and that weight caused it to become lop sided and then blamo...down she went.

:whydontcha

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by Edith Grove on Feb 15th, 2009 at 6:24pm

wrote on Feb 15th, 2009 at 6:17pm:
it was freezing rain as the plane was approaching the airport and obviously very cold out that night...it sounds like ice build up on the wings and that weight caused it to become lop sided and then blamo...down she went.


Yeah, but those conditions must happen all the time around this time of year, all over the northern hemisphere, so why did this particular plane go down?

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by glencar on Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:55am
Those de-icing boots aren't as effective as the heating de-icing system that jets use. I'd recommend not flying turboprops in the winter.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by platter on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:00pm

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:55am:
Those de-icing boots aren't as effective as the heating de-icing system that jets use. I'd recommend not flying turboprops in the winter.


aren't these planes like one of a kind?  as far as i know there aren't that many built, other than say for scenic flights you can hire for an hour [say to fly over whiteface mtn and over lake placid]  i thought they were a thing of the past.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by left shoe shuffle on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:12pm

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:00pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:55am:
Those de-icing boots aren't as effective as the heating de-icing system that jets use. I'd recommend not flying turboprops in the winter.


aren't these planes like one of a kind?  as far as i know there aren't that many built, other than say for scenic flights you can hire for an hour [say to fly over whiteface mtn and over lake placid]  i thought they were a thing of the past.


The Bombardier turboprop plane that crashed wasn't even a year old.
It was also considerably larger than those that are used for "scenic" flights.


Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by platter on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:18pm

left shoe shuffle wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:12pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:00pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:55am:
Those de-icing boots aren't as effective as the heating de-icing system that jets use. I'd recommend not flying turboprops in the winter.


aren't these planes like one of a kind?  as far as i know there aren't that many built, other than say for scenic flights you can hire for an hour [say to fly over whiteface mtn and over lake placid]  i thought they were a thing of the past.


The Bombardier turboprop plane that crashed wasn't even a year old.
It was also considerably larger than those that are used for "scenic" flights.



i understand that...i was just thinking prop planes.

i flew in a 2 seater prop plane a few years ago, the craft was fluttering all over the place.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by left shoe shuffle on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:24pm

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:18pm:

left shoe shuffle wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:12pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:00pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:55am:
Those de-icing boots aren't as effective as the heating de-icing system that jets use. I'd recommend not flying turboprops in the winter.


aren't these planes like one of a kind?  as far as i know there aren't that many built, other than say for scenic flights you can hire for an hour [say to fly over whiteface mtn and over lake placid]  i thought they were a thing of the past.


The Bombardier turboprop plane that crashed wasn't even a year old.
It was also considerably larger than those that are used for "scenic" flights.



i understand that...i was just thinking prop planes.


Turboprops are regularly used for "commuter" flights.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by platter on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:28pm

left shoe shuffle wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:24pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:18pm:

left shoe shuffle wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:12pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:00pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:55am:
Those de-icing boots aren't as effective as the heating de-icing system that jets use. I'd recommend not flying turboprops in the winter.


aren't these planes like one of a kind?  as far as i know there aren't that many built, other than say for scenic flights you can hire for an hour [say to fly over whiteface mtn and over lake placid]  i thought they were a thing of the past.


The Bombardier turboprop plane that crashed wasn't even a year old.
It was also considerably larger than those that are used for "scenic" flights.



i understand that...i was just thinking prop planes.


Turboprops are regularly used for "commuter" flights.


because they fly at a lower altitude, i know.



Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by left shoe shuffle on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:30pm

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:28pm:

left shoe shuffle wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:24pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:18pm:

left shoe shuffle wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:12pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:00pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:55am:
Those de-icing boots aren't as effective as the heating de-icing system that jets use. I'd recommend not flying turboprops in the winter.


aren't these planes like one of a kind?  as far as i know there aren't that many built, other than say for scenic flights you can hire for an hour [say to fly over whiteface mtn and over lake placid]  i thought they were a thing of the past.


The Bombardier turboprop plane that crashed wasn't even a year old.
It was also considerably larger than those that are used for "scenic" flights.



i understand that...i was just thinking prop planes.


Turboprops are regularly used for "commuter" flights.


because they fly at a lower altitude, i know.


No, because they're generally smaller and used for shorter - i.e. "commuter"-  flights.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by platter on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:56pm

left shoe shuffle wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:30pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:28pm:

left shoe shuffle wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:24pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:18pm:

left shoe shuffle wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:12pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:00pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:55am:
Those de-icing boots aren't as effective as the heating de-icing system that jets use. I'd recommend not flying turboprops in the winter.


aren't these planes like one of a kind?  as far as i know there aren't that many built, other than say for scenic flights you can hire for an hour [say to fly over whiteface mtn and over lake placid]  i thought they were a thing of the past.


The Bombardier turboprop plane that crashed wasn't even a year old.
It was also considerably larger than those that are used for "scenic" flights.



i understand that...i was just thinking prop planes.


Turboprops are regularly used for "commuter" flights.


because they fly at a lower altitude, i know.


No, because they're generally smaller and used for shorter - i.e. "commuter"-  flights.


and because they can fly at lower altitudes.  how high do you need to get to from jersey to buffalo anyway?  i wouldn't think 20-25 thousand feet now.  i bet it is next to impossible to get served a beer before the bird lands.

owwwww

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by glencar on Feb 16th, 2009 at 4:03pm

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:00pm:

wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:55am:
Those de-icing boots aren't as effective as the heating de-icing system that jets use. I'd recommend not flying turboprops in the winter.


aren't these planes like one of a kind?  as far as i know there aren't that many built, other than say for scenic flights you can hire for an hour [say to fly over whiteface mtn and over lake placid]  i thought they were a thing of the past.

No, the Dash 8's are used quite a bit & as, Left Shoe Shuffle noted, this one was pretty new. I have flown them several times but not in the winter.

Title: Re: Tragedy In BUF
Post by glencar on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:04am
From the WSJ:

Pilot Action May Have Led to Crash
Investigators examining last week's Continental Connection plane crash have gathered evidence that pilot commands -- not a buildup of ice on the wings and tail -- likely initiated the fatal dive of the twin-engine Bombardier Q400 into a neighborhood six miles short of the Buffalo, N.Y., airport, according to people familiar with the situation.

The commuter plane slowed to an unsafe speed as it approached the airport, causing an automatic stall warning, these people said. The pilot pulled back sharply on the plane's controls and added power instead of following the proper procedure of pushing forward to lower the plane's nose to regain speed, they said. He held the controls there, locking the airplane into a deadly stall, they added.

........

According to people familiar with the investigation, Capt. Marvin Renslow, 47 years old, who lived outside Tampa, Fla., was at the controls of Flight 3407. The safety board said Mr. Renslow was relatively new to the Q400, which he began flying only in December, when he upgraded from another type of airplane. First Officer Rebecca Lynne Shaw, 24, of Seattle, had accumulated 774 hours in the 74-seat aircraft.

The recovered flight data described in detail how the crew of Continental Flight 3407 handled the emergency, the people said.

During the flight from Newark, Mr. Renslow and Ms. Shaw noticed ice building up on the windshield and wings of the airplane after they had already activated the craft's de-icing system, which inflates a series of rubber bladders on the leading edge of the wings and tail surfaces to break up accumulated ice.

According to the plane's flight recorders, Flight 3407's descent into Buffalo was routine until roughly a minute before impact, when the crew lowered the landing gear, followed by the command to extend the wing flaps, which enable the plane to fly at slower speeds.

Almost immediately, these people say, the plane's air speed slowed rapidly, causing a stall-warning device known as a "stick-shaker" to cause the pilots' control column to vibrate. This was followed by a "stick-pusher," which automatically forces the stick forward.

At this point, the captain appears to have pulled back with enough force to overpower the stick-pusher and shoved the throttles to full power, according to people familiar with the matter. Safety board officials said the nose pitched up to a 31-degree angle. Already at a dangerously low speed, the wings immediately stopped generating lift. The plane whipped to the left and then entered a steep right turn, losing 800 feet of altitude in less than five seconds. At one point the right wing was perpendicular to the ground, according to information taken from the flight data recorder.

The pilots continued to fight with the controls almost all the way to the ground, and in the final moments, "it appeared that they were beginning to make headway when they ran out of altitude," said one person who looked at the data.

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